El Mirage 5/16/09

[McRat]

I'm confused (what's new?)!

How's a Chevy 3/4-ton Gas truck different than a Diesel in body, outside of maybe the heighth of the hood?  Isn't an extended cab (or crew cab) slipprier than a single cab.  Is there a rule not allowing lowering in this class?  Would a NASCAR or other race class truck be legal in DT where no body panel can be altered?

Stan Back
(Known to protest -- how we gonna keep them safe down on the farm.)

Diesel trucks have no Sport Truck versions, no ground effect options, no spoilers.  Diesel pickups start out as normal work trucks and get diesel powerplants.  Even the rare diesel minitrucks have the aero of barn doors.

Yes, the Chevy 3/4 ton gas truck is the same body.  Hence why you won't see anyone running one in Gas Pickup class.  Very lousy choice.  You won't see duallies either.

But "rules is rules".  The rulebook specifically states exactly what body must be used.  It must be a Diesel Pickup Body aligned with Gas Coupe rules (1982+).  There is no true "Gas Pickup" as they are broke into 2 classes, mini-trucks and 1/2 ton trucks.  So Diesel Truck can't be the same. 

[Stan Back]

I'm looking at 5.E.4 Production Pickup . . .

And don't see where they're limited to 1/2-tons, nor exclude dualleys.  You can do a lot to a Production engine that is non-production.  And choosing a one-ton dualley looks legal to me.  Sometimes racers choose a vehicle that doesn't maximize the rules and then wonder why the competition has an "advantage".

Like for something I know a  little about -- Street Roadsters.  The guy that chose the 28 Dodge Fast Four last year had some advantages and held the V4F record for an hour or two with an un-sorted-out car.  I suspect he'll be back stronger this year.  The '30 Ford Roadster has aero advantages over the '29 -- it's slicker and the driver can sit lower because of the stock floorboard.  It's also a mini '32 -- but the the Deuce fans keep building them.  They start with a disadvantage, but want to build a car a certain way.  In the most-competitive SCTA classes this won't get you the hat, or much else either.  It's just gonna take a lot more HP to get to your goal -- and usually that costs more than making the better choice to begin with.

Stan Back

[McRat]

So what would you think of someone running a 2/3rd's scale roadster?  66% of the frontal area of OEM? 

There are subtle aero differences and there are huge ones.  With trucks, they tend to be huge.

Nobody even dragraces the duallies seriously.  They give up a full second against the SRW trucks.  Yeah, you could LSR a duallie.  And you'd find out why they lose 3-4mpg highway to the SRW trucks at the same weight.  We call them Fat-Bottom Girls.

[McRat]

BTW - I'm just rambling on for fun.  My opinion of rule interpretation has zero bearing on anything.  I'll run no matter what the rules are if I'm permitted to run.  My goal isn't to be the fastest DT.  First I want to be the fastest production diesel with a neutral party clocking it (SCTA).  Then I want to go hunting the gasoline trucks.  I believe the gas engines have a huge advantage, and I also believe I can beat them with a diesel.

[Stan Back]

I think if someone showed up with a 2/3 scale Deuce it would be illegal.  But if he showed up with a '28 Essex Fair Trumpet -- and it met the class criteria and was 2/3s the size of a Deuce, he was smart.

I'd never seen a '28 Dodge Fast Four before, but it sure looked like it has some real advantages over a '27 T.  It looked to me (didn't measure) that it was just as narrow, but had a longer cockpit, longer wheelbase.  The longer cockpit lets you get the driver down in St.R instead of the T's that look like they're hauling an oil derrick around.  The longer wheelbase can lead to better stability -- probably not needed in V4F.  But the five main bearing flathead has got to be an advantage.

I talked to Pedro and he went to great lenghts (A real great story!) to get the car.  Once he got it, he started with an advantage.  Better thinking than I did -- I just decided to race the roadster I'd had for 40 years.  Not always the best choice.

Stan

[McRat]

I think if someone showed up with a 2/3 scale Deuce it would be illegal.  But if he showed up with a '28 Essex Fair Trumpet -- and it met the class criteria and was 2/3s the size of a Deuce, he was smart.

I'd never seen a '28 Dodge Fast Four before, but it sure looked like it has some real advantages over a '27 T.  It looked to me (didn't measure) that it was just as narrow, but had a longer cockpit, longer wheelbase.  The longer cockpit lets you get the driver down in St.R instead of the T's that look like they're hauling an oil derrick around.  The longer wheelbase can lead to better stability -- probably not needed in V4F.  But the five main bearing flathead has got to be an advantage.

I talked to Pedro and he went to great lenghts (A real great story!) to get the car.  Once he got it, he started with an advantage.  Better thinking than I did -- I just decided to race the roadster I'd had for 40 years.  Not always the best choice.

Stan

My philosophy has been to build what I enjoy, then figure out a way to race it.  That way if I get spanked hard, at least I can enjoy driving it home! 

[JR529]

I figure that now that the Diesel class is finally getting some action it will be split into a mid/mini diesel and a full size diesel class. The fact that nobody was competing in it kept it from happening in the past. Give it a year or so and all will be sorted out. Also, classic trucks with chopped tops should not be running against full size modern trucks.

[Kat]

My philosophy has been to build what I enjoy, then figure out a way to race it.  That way if I get spanked hard, at least I can enjoy driving it home! 

He would have even drag raced the motorhome in AZ when Casper blew a head gasket if I would have let him   

[sockjohn]

I'm looking at 5.E.4 Production Pickup . . .

And don't see where they're limited to 1/2-tons, nor exclude dualleys.  You can do a lot to a Production engine that is non-production.  And choosing a one-ton dualley looks legal to me.  Sometimes racers choose a vehicle that doesn't maximize the rules and then wonder why the competition has an "advantage".

Like for something I know a  little about -- Street Roadsters.  The guy that chose the 28 Dodge Fast Four last year had some advantages and held the V4F record for an hour or two with an un-sorted-out car.  I suspect he'll be back stronger this year.  The '30 Ford Roadster has aero advantages over the '29 -- it's slicker and the driver can sit lower because of the stock floorboard.  It's also a mini '32 -- but the the Deuce fans keep building them.  They start with a disadvantage, but want to build a car a certain way.  In the most-competitive SCTA classes this won't get you the hat, or much else either.  It's just gonna take a lot more HP to get to your goal -- and usually that costs more than making the better choice to begin with.

Stan Back

I don't know the car rules well, much less the truck ones, but keep wondering about the cd*A of the Chevrolet SSR.

It looks rounded and smooth, does the air think the same as my eyes?   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chevrolet_SSR.jpg

Edit: picture too big to link

[jimmy six]

Mc and all. Definately not sure on the diesel truck top chopping but it is always not necessary for a vehicle to be protested by another competitor. If a vehicle is found to not meet the rules of the class during post record inspections it can be noted by the impound inspectors and the record denied for a rule violation. Many of the protests come from the inability of the impound guys to know every possible thing about every vehicle and some one pointing it out verbally or written as a true protest. If the rule book says no chopping then in impouds it can be denied a record by the officials by just reading it in the book.

I know in the Vintage Gas Coupe class a 2"  "beaty" chop is allowed. Maybe this a referance to this spot in the book becaue of the age of the vehicle and a diesel is definately an engine swap to a 1948 and older vehicle.

I was involved with one in 1985 where a car in the same class I was running did not have any cover over the carburators sticking out of the hood. I commented on this to an inspector after we both qualified for record runs the next morning (3 runs at that time). I inspector told the guy I protested his car which I didn't. This infraction should have been pointed out during the initial safety inspection and wasn't. I told the inspector that I did not want the car stopped from running on the record against me the next morning but to fix it before any additional runs after that. I was able to beat the person by 1 MPH and he was never able to requify again after putting on a carb shield required by the rulebook. I was always the AH by protesting him but I didn't. The same thing happened to the #36 Roadster about 3 years ago when, during record inspection, the step pan was deamed illegal. He had not built the car but bought it. The pervious owner had never qualified for a record and did know it did not meet specs. It is a tough way to loose a record.



 

[SPARKY]

Then there are others who go around protesting others that are not in the body clasification that they run---I guess thaey just want us to know that they are smart enough to read---lol

[McRat]

Then there are others who go around protesting others that are not in the body clasification that they run---I guess thaey just want us to know that they are smart enough to read---lol

At a diesel drag event, I had a freakin' spectator protest us. 

We had been given permission for both me and my wife to run the truck by the organizers, but a Dodge Cummins weiner who wasn't even racing cried about it when Kat was pulling up to staging.  Sadly, with that organization, rich spectators have more authority than the racers or organizers, and she was DQ'd.


But back to LSR, due to the whole points thingy, it creates a situation where people have a vested interest in vehicles they would otherwise have no interest in.  With me, it's run order.  Since points can equal better traction, it's important to get as many as possible.  While I can't imagine myself protesting someone to get "ahead", I suppose there is a lot of pressure to do so.

[SPARKY]

I thing air is like a heard of cats--it just goes to where ever YOU created a low pressure area or you may temporarily displace it ---but eventually it just likes to hang out with its buddies of similar characteristics. The eyes have trouble identifying invisible characteristics.

[Dmax65]

So what would you think of someone running a 2/3rd's scale roadster?  66% of the frontal area of OEM?  (Quote)

Boy Pat....there seems to be no end to your whining on this subject. Just remember, Hooker Graham Hooker's Chevy Luv and Gale Bank's Dakota set this precedent many years before you ever decided to get into Landspeed Racing. We all are impressed with your efforts and I'm certain of your future success at reaching 200mph, and doing it as a production truck is great, but some of us have our sights set at higher than 200mph....and a smart builder will start with something a little more aerodynamic than a full size truck. You make it sound like we are cheating and are stepping down from a gas class into an easier class....not the case at all. To push our S10 to our goal of 250mph and above won't be an easy task. If my goal was 200 then you would have all the room in the world to whine about my effort, but 200 isn't our target and we aren't claiming to be a production truck. That's your deal and not mine.
Curtis

[McRat]

So what would you think of someone running a 2/3rd's scale roadster?  66% of the frontal area of OEM?  (Quote)

Boy Pat....there seems to be no end to your whining on this subject. Just remember, Hooker Graham Hooker's Chevy Luv and Gale Bank's Dakota set this precedent many years before you ever decided to get into Landspeed Racing. We all are impressed with your efforts and I'm certain of your future success at reaching 200mph, and doing it as a production truck is great, but some of us have our sights set at higher than 200mph....and a smart builder will start with something a little more aerodynamic than a full size truck. You make it sound like we are cheating and are stepping down from a gas class into an easier class....not the case at all. To push our S10 to our goal of 250mph and above won't be an easy task. If my goal was 200 then you would have all the room in the world to whine about my effort, but 200 isn't our target and we aren't claiming to be a production truck. That's your deal and not mine.
Curtis

250?  Fastest truck is 272mph.  Think big.

My opinion on the subject ain't new.  Heck, I discussed the subject at Bonneville with you before you started on it.  Specifically how running an S-10 with a Duramax would be the optimum setup if allowed.

And like I posted, that's all it is, is my opinion.  Chopped tops, gas minitruck bodies, boat engines, etc, it ain't my call, and unlike your pals at Texas, I won't protest you.

Good luck and I'll see you on the salt.