INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011

[pookie]

   Panic.... I just don't get your reaction to the rude commet made too you!You gave all this unsolicited help TOO LARS, which he certainly appreciated,then some guy from the "peanut gallery" makes a wisecrack about you so you punish LARS!! That my friend is not logical... Any one that ticks you off,  hit that IGNORE button, problem solved... One thing on this website is CREDIBILTY especially when your dealing with many of the subjects discussed here...I think you are a credible person and who wants to help people when you can...Poor Lars is sitting over there in Denmark probably saying "what the F--k" just happened? There is a lot of people on this website who would like to see you continue to post, I for one vote yes, But if that is not in the cards, well good luck to you and remember that in life there is always a Ignore"button... Mike R.

[wobblywalrus]

Panic, I hope I am not the peanut gallery guy that ticked you off.  My apologies if I did.

[WhizzbangK.C.]

In short, arguing with a head-strong amateur is wasting everyone's time: mine, because I don't care if he's right or not; his, because he's not going to listen; and yours, because you're waiting for the dust to settle. .

So don't argue. We're pretty much all headstrong amateurs in this sport, that's part of the fun. We don't know everything and aren't smart enough to know what can't be done sometimes. That doesn't mean that we don't want to learn and know more, and your posts are the kind of information that a lot of us hang out here to find.

Just because someone has a slightly different understanding of how something works, or chooses different ways to express or visualize something, doesn't automatically make them stupid. Perhaps they are misinformed, or misunderstood it the first time it was presented to them. That doesn't mean that they are undeserving of access to the correct information.

Deleting your posts the way that you do is petty. It's like a teacher taking away the text books from the entire class just because one student is failing. I can't wrap my head around any good reason for you to do that other than disdain for anyone less well versed on the subject than yourself, but I can't see that because if we all knew everything there would be no reason for you to post it in the first place.

I also vote that you keep posting, I've learned a lot from your posts, and would have like to have had a chance to learn more by reviewing them later.

[panic]

I'd quote Ayn Rand, but I don't think it would do any good.

[WhizzbangK.C.]

I'd quote Ayn Rand, but I don't think it would do any good.

*

[jl222]

"Disagree" suggests that text that I remove is my opinion. "Vanilla is better than chocolate" is an opinion. Generally, anything other than fact, historical data, actual dimensions, laws of physics will say very clearly IME, AFAIK, or attribute the statement to the original author.
My statements (widely made, and disagreed with half of the time) that high rod ratio cannot make the rod "dwell" (stop) at TDC, piston motion @ TDC and BDC are not symmetrical, piston motion B&A TDC are not symmetrical unless the pin is centered, and that 1/2 the stroke does not occur at 90° are not my opinion, and do not require validation.
When some rocket scientist "explains" "what is widely acknowledged", or "it stands to reason that", and repeats what he read off some magazine cover, I don't bother to discuss it with him.
People who post things like "increasing the compression ratio 10% increases power by 10%" are not susceptible to discussion, let alone correction.

In short, arguing with a head-strong amateur is wasting everyone's time: mine, because I don't care if he's right or not; his, because he's not going to listen; and yours, because you're waiting for the dust to settle. .

  If you want to keep a post quote it

          JL222

[octane]

Mmmmm; this is all getting a whiff weird.

Pookie / Mike:
Thanks for your comment:
you're making perfect sense !

Rocky  ( "Ironwigwam" ) is my friend.
I was honoured to be on his team in 2008 and I look forward to
see your liner crunch the Salt next year !!!
I have no effing clue what happened with you and 'panic'
and it really doesn't matter.
Who gives a flying f....f...f...f...fork seal...ha ha
Please come back. You know Indians.
 I value your input.

Whizzbang.K.C. / Ed
I spend time with on the Salt and
 I consider him a friend, that I look forward to meet again
and Ed; I agree with you on this ...er....incident.., and I admire your bafflingly eloquent and 'to the point' comment' here.

WooblyWallros / Bo is filed in my dictionary under "kind helpfulness"
and also a friend that I very much look forward to meet again

'Nortonist592' / Bill is a effing great guy that I thoroughly enjoyed meeting on the Salt
after having only 'met' him several times 'on-line'

'Panic' / Jeff , I admire for his dedication and passion for knowledge and for being kind and helpful to me,
not only here but in PM's as well.
Jeff;  it pi**es me off, like you wouldn't believe, that you delete your posts, but heyyyy; that's you privilege.
It's your posts.

[EDIT: I just found out that you have deleted every single of your posts in my thread
going all the way back to April 2009.
Maaaaan: I just don't get it......but as I said: that's your previlege]




SO; friends;
please let it go !
Some of us are a bit weird, and some of us are a little more that just a bit, weird.

It's all cool !

If anyone wants to comment on Panic's actions or if Panic want to comment on some of these posts
or someone want to comment on a comment to Panic or Panic wants to comment on a post commenting
someones comment on Panics action or someone wants to comment on my comment to the comments on Panic's
comment to someones comments to the comments on Panic's comment to the comments commenting
the comments to the comments to Panics action:
PLEASE USE THE PM system .
THANKS !




So after this ...er....interesting ...intermezzo:
Back to business; :

Here's a couple of pictures to witch I'd like to hear your comments.
ALL your input, be it guesswork, educated guesswork, exact knowledge , expertise, drug induced fantasies ...whatever...
is highly appreciated.
I feel nothing but gratitude for you guys who actually take an interest in my small endeavour
and take the time to post your comments
and I'm sure you do it with nothing but the intention of helping me.
I've said it before and I'll gladly say it again:
THANK YOU !

There's been a couple of slightly conflicting links posted here, on how to 'read' spark plugs
but what'ta'your'think:



To me it kind'a OK
...Color change , more or less in the middle of ground strap
( plug heat range OK )
...grey/brown'ish color at the point where inner-wall meets porcelain
( indicating jetting/mixture is OK )
...base ring and inner wall grey-black
( indicating mixture is OK )

UNclear indications of tiiiiny spots of aluminum on ground strap.





Tiny black spots on porcelain
Deteriorated porcelain .
...that can't be good . Sign of pre-ignition ?


THIS worries me:



Weird oil-stain on piston...
( The polished part is because I wanted to check if there was any evidence of
pitting  ( aluminum deterioration causes by pre-ignition ) ...but there was none )


Similar weird oil-stain on corresponding head:



What IS that

I'd quote Ayn Rand, but I don't think it would do any good.

NO, probably not, but my guess is that you're referring to this quote :

"...There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil...."
Ayn Rand

I'm afraid I totally and utterly disagree with Mrs. Rand.

[pookie]

 Howdy Lars,  The ONLY way you can get a valid plug reading is to clutch and kill the engine simultaneously while it is at full speed.. Any other way is a exercise in futility.. Kinda like pissing into the wind.. That black stuff could be oil that worked its way past the rings, REMEMBER you did not beak in the engine  and the engine tolerances were set up on the "loose' side.  The black stuff could also be excessive fuel that was not burned completely, could be slightly gooey and tacky. Didn't you say in your build sheet you were thinking  about running alcohol?? Did you? If you ran gas your plugs will look 1 way but if it is alcohol  they will look differant than gas..1 thing else you are tuning a 50 year +or - old technology that means you have to use "back in the day" knowledge and experience. You know, Fred Flintstone stuff.. Did you get my last PM>?  Take it easy, Mike R.

[WhizzbangK.C.]

In the lower left side of the piston picture it appears that the edge of the piston is damaged. Is this just an optical illusion in the picture or is it actual damage? It appears that the swirl stain originates at that point, so possibly you have damaged rings in that area allowing oil to bypass them into the combustion chamber.

Are this picture and the plug with the deteriorated porcelain from the cylinder that cut a groove in the head when the gasket failed? If so they may both be collateral damage from the gasket failure due to the groove allowing outside air to be sucked into the cylinder and leaning out the effective mixture, along with the corresponding loss of compression, and completely messing up the burn characteristics. If so I wouldn't worry about those too much, just focus on fixing the root cause of the failure.

Actually, I kind of agree with Panic. Arguing with idiots is kind of like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a while you figure out that the pig is enjoying it! I just can't wrap my head around deleting good info and letting stuff that he's sure is erroneous stay up, seems to be counter productive to me. (The last statement from me on this topic, LOL.)

[pookie]

  Lars,  Whizzbang KC is definitely correct about the piston.. The plug is showing gray and porcelain is showing pre or beginning detonation.. The lip of the piston looks to be eroded away. Is there any scoring on the cylinder wall where the top is eroded away? Good job, Whizzer,  Mike

[wobblywalrus]

Lars, you are struggling.  It is best if I do not give technical recommendations.  I am more of a brit bike kind of guy.  This is how I work.  First, I start with a standard engine as designed by the factory, more or less.  I ride it and learn about how it works, how the parts color with carbon, etc., and what it feels and sounds like.  The proper fuel, ignition timing, plugs etc.  Then I change something.  I ride it some more.  It is easy to figure out what causes any problems.  It is the last thing I changed.  I get everything working good.  Then I move on to the next step.  Lots of notes, etc.  You can see this in my build.  I ran a bone stock engine in 2007.  A bone standard engine with a ported head in 2008 and 2009.  Two years with this setup?  It took me a couple to get everything working.  A mildly hopped up engine in 2010.  More fine tuning on this same engine in 2011.  The lower end is built for a blower and one might be installed in the future, if I find the money.  It will not happen until I get the NA setup completely figured out and working. 

Sometimes when I have problems I go back to the last known good setup and start over.

Pure race motors are something I rarely built.  When I did, I put them in a street chassis and broke them in, troubleshooted all sorts of problems, set the mixture, and then I put them in the race chassis.  All of the work on my Triumph gets figured out on the road as best as I can. 

This is not telling anyone what to do or the best way.  It simply is a different approach to doing things. 

[octane]

Someone asked me a series of questions using the PM system,
but I'll repeat the answers here in case someone else find them
useful in order to better 'understand' the engine as it sums up the basics of the engine:

.. Have the heads been surface?

...yep. I cleaned up the heads







...and surfaced them in the manner I've always used.
Thick sheet of glass...working my way through finer and finer grades of abrasive paper
that I spray-glue to the glass, using first water then thin oil on the finer grades,
sanding in a circular motion

Have the cylinders been checked for flatness or surfaced?

..yes. It was done by the machinist who bored the cylinders

 

Are the head studs of stock origin or are you using Hi performance like ARP brand?

..stock ( brand new manufactured repro )

What type of torque wrench did you use to torque the head nuts?

..don't know the proper English term, but the adjustable 'click' type

Did you use lubricant on the threads..

..I'm afraid I don't recall if I did that when I first installed them. I do think I did.
Reminds me that I just checked this site:

HEAD BOLTS

....which was suggested reading by David. David is not a member here, but here's a pic of him.
Apparently he is vacuum cleaning the Salt. Good man !
.-)

Were the heads torqued to stock spec.?

...yes

How did you determine that you needed bigger exhaust valves..

..from what I read about supercharging:
Gas is FORCED in by the blower,
but the exhaust gasses doesn't get any 'help' getting out,
so installing bigger exhaust valves is a good idea , to help the engine 'breathe'

Did you put larger intake valves in?

..no

Did you cc the heads?

..I'm not sure what you're asking.
I DID measure the cc of the heads in order to calculate the compression ratio:

Are you indexing the spark plugs?

..no

Have the intake or exhaust ports been altered?

..no

is the camshaft stock and do you know the specs on the camshaft?

..stock.
Specs: CLICK
See the specs for "INDIAN 741"

Did you degree the camshaft?

..no

Is the ignition a point type is it dual point with 1 or 2 coils?

..point type but with "electronic" / magnetic trigger. 1 coil.
I rebuild the distributor and replaced the points with this:



...the Electronic ignition

What is the ID of the exhaust pipes and the total length?

...don't know, but I followed the advise of what I read about supercharged engines:
make exhaust pipes as short and big-ID'ed as possible ( and I had to make them so they
complied with the A.M.A. / S.C.T.A, rules )

When the piston is at TDC, is the pistonflush with the top of the cylinder or is it down or above the cylinder?

..flush

The pistons look like they cast not forged?I take it that you set the ring gaps at stock settings?

..yes.
Ring gap set to 'racing' specs according to the instructions that came with the pistons

Do you have a leak down tester?

...no but will definitely make one now



.......................................................................................


I'll be back a little later to answer the above posts.

.

[WhizzbangK.C.]

...and surfaced them in the manner I've always used.
Thick sheet of glass...working my way through finer and finer grades of abrasive paper
that I spray-glue to the glass, using first water then thin oil on the finer grades,
sanding in a circular motion

Ahhhh. Lars, after you get the groove from the blown gasket welded up, take those heads to a good machinist and have them properly surfaced with a fly cutter.

I'll bet you a beer at the Black and White next year that surfacing them the way you did left them "not perfectly flat". The thin areas between the combustion chamber and the bolt holes would tend to be sanded down ever so slightly more than the thicker areas due to the way the paper and lose abrasive behave when doing it that way.

I used to use that method myself on H-D Shovelheads, then one day I checked one with a machinist's straight edge and saw that the "flat" gasket surfaces actually tapered off just a bit on the edges. Less than .002 inch, but still enough to not properly clamp the gasket. That was the last time I used that method.

You can check yours with a good straight edge across the chamber in an area that wasn't damaged by the failure. You shouldn't be able to see any light between the edge and the gasket surface, all the way to the chamber. Should be a nice sharp edge on the sealing face.

[AHG]

Det min gode ven. bedste succes med deres motorcykel Henledte

Drew

p.s.
I hope that came out correctly

[Peter Jack]

Lars, the machining leaves a slightly rough surface which helps retain the gasket especially when it's a fibre one. This will probably help as well with the existing gasket, although I'd rather still see a solid copper one.

Pete