INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011

[MC 1314]

Lars, you sure have had your share of challenges this year! Hang in there, you will do at least 130, still my prediction if you can keep it running.
Look me up in Pre Stage. Are you going to park at the bend in the road?
Bob

[generatorshovel]

Octane, you are not alone with your leaking head  gasket problem, Iv'e had more that just a little drama keeping my cylinder / head hold down studs from pulling out of my crankcase in the past,,during re-assembly !
Here is my solution (I hope)


If this does not work, at least I won't run over the head and barrel when it blows.
Tiny

[Koncretekid]

Octane,
When you run out of new ways to hold that head down, why not try a thicker head gasket to lower the compression.  After all, you've go a supercharger to bring the compression back up again.  Better to walk before you run.  You could always start with the lower compression, then switch to thinner head gaskets later.
Tom

[Unkl Ian]

The rules require you to use the stock cylinders, but not the stock heads.

You could make up some heads with more material in the right places,
and a different fin pattern.

[Peter Jack]

"Some times I just don't get the finer points of the English language."

If you watch and listen carefully most of us who use it as our native tongue sometimes have the same problem!!!

Pete

[octane]

What I have in mind is like Iron Wiggwams jig (see previous post) for the oversized head studs   then drill holes in the plate and tapp for bolts to screw down to the head with a spreader much like a floating end of a C clamp.

Torque the heads down with the studs then preload the the bolts---someone smarter than me will have to advise you on how the torques on the various studs and bolts would need to be.   some or all of the fins would have to be milled off where the "feet" reached down

OK, I get it now
Basically that's the same thing that Moen suggested but different........erh.....I wish I could explain !

Lars, you sure have had your share of challenges this year! Hang in there, you will do at least 130, still my prediction if you can keep it running.
Look me up in Pre Stage. Are you going to park at the bend in the road?
Bob

Hi Bob ! Aaaaaaaaaa, I think you're a bit too optimistic
.-)

Yep, I'll be at the bend.
Looking forward to meet you again !

[octane]

Octane, you are not alone with your leaking head  gasket problem, Iv'e had more that just a little drama keeping my cylinder / head hold down studs from pulling out of my crankcase in the past,,during re-assembly !
Here is my solution (I hope)


If this does not work, at least I won't run over the head and barrel when it blows.
Tiny

That looks great Tiny.
A bit too sophisticated for me.
I'd probably end up with something like this BSA Gold Star:



Huh ?!
Yep!...I took that pic a couple of years ago at the Swedish racetrack Knutstorp

Octane,
When you run out of new ways to hold that head down, why not try a thicker head gasket to lower the compression.  After all, you've go a supercharger to bring the compression back up again.  Better to walk before you run.  You could always start with the lower compression, then switch to thinner head gaskets later.
Tom

Yep, that might be worth a try !
Also; hopefully I'll have time to do an extra pulley for the blower to run it slightly slower.

The rules require you to use the stock cylinders, but not the stock heads.

I'm afraid that only goes for SCTA, but not for AMA / BUB where I plan to run as well.

Vintage classes:
"...flathead, OHV, and 2 stroke engines must retain the O.E.M. Heads, Cylinders
and Crankcase originally installed at the time of factory production..."

"Some times I just don't get the finer points of the English language."

If you watch and listen carefully most of us who use it as our native tongue sometimes have the same problem!!!

Pete

Ah ! ..so that's why I don't understand you guys

.-)

[octane]

Been fooling around with carbs today.
Got myself an extra one as a back up in case I do something foolish
with the 'original' one.



On a normal set-up with this carb on a big HD it would run with a 180 main-jet ( = 1.8mm diameter hole)
I bored my main-jet up to 235 ( = 2,35mm diameter hole ...you get the point now...right )
in order to get it rich enough.
Nice.... except when reflecting on it and properly using what little brain I have left
there a slight problem:

The mail jet sits below a small tube that goes up into the venturi.
The hole in that tube is is big enough to flow the gas from the main-jet
except the needle is always "taking up room" in the hole , even at full throttle.

Calculated the 'effective area' (EA) of the hole



and the restrictive area of the needle at a position as when at full throttle.
Oooops: what was 'left' was an area smaller than the area of the main jet hole area.

My ham-fisted 'solution' to this was to bore up the hole in the little tube thingy



and raising the needle ( made possible by a DYNOJET aftermarket needle with grooves and a circlip )



Now to check the effective flow area, I put things back into carb
and again marked the position of the needle ( at full throttle )



Calculated again hole area and subtracted needle-at-that-position area.
...and hey !!! ...I now have an area bigger than the main jet even after boring it up to 3mm
to set it up for alcohol.

( The area of the former 2.35 main-jet hole was 4,2 sq. mm
the area of the now bored 3.00 main-jet hole is 7.06 sq. mm)



Now further down the system:
The bore of the float-bowl valve hole is 3.2mm so that's fine



but will the valve



restrict the flow ...as in will the valve be slightly 'in' the hole even when
fully open ( float bowl near-empty )

Dunno really, but I could measure the flow-rate, so I set up at test:
1 liter water in a bottle
Connect to carb
Hold up bottle while shaking about the carb ( as when running )
so float-valve would open/semi-open/close/open etc.



...and timed how long it took to flow 1 liter.

That took almost exactly 2 minutes, so:

At 160 km/hour ( 100 mph ) I would run 2.6 km pr. minute
or 5.2 km pr. two minutes

So I have 1 liter to run 5.2 km.

That probably doesn't mean a thing to you, but that's the equivalent of running
12.2 miles pr. gallon

That has got to be enough for a tiny 600cc engine even running on alcohol.
If not then I will just have to mix it with gas ( requiring less stuff to burn pr. mile )

This is hardly a rocket science exercise , but just my cross-eyed attempt try and set up the carb.

...............................

Now that the pocket calculater was hot in hand
I did a bit more calculating.
Wanted to know how many RPMs I ran at Bonneville.

I knew the speed ( just shy of 90mph ) the circuference of the rear wheel ( 2 meters )
the wheel and gearbox sprockets ( 40/22 ) and the primary sprockets ( 52/24 )
so it was a simple matter of going 'backwards'
and result was that I was running 4700 RPMs.

That's a good number and being slightly optimistic that this time around
I will run the same 4700 RMPs with a slightly stronger running engine
I've decided to mount a 25 sprocket on the gearbox
and if all goes according to plan ( ha ha ...as IF ) running the same 4700 RPMs
on the little devil Saltbicquit, it will reach the phenomenal speed of 100 mph.
A fine round number, I'd say.

................................

New fancy and rather expensive headbolts and bigger hardened washers
from ARP have been ordered.


Have a great weekend ya'all !
I hope I haven't bored you silly.

[ironwigwam]

Land Speed Larry,
   Do you have a part number for this ARP product?
    Roky
    1957 S/VG

[thefrenchowl]

Hi Lars,

Roughly, you'll need twice as much methanol as required on a gasoline set up.

1.8mm diameter main jet = 2.54sqmm

X 2 = 5.08 sqmm/3.1416 = 1.62 = rxr = 1.27 radius = 2.54mm diameter

My S&S MGAL, 47mm, when on methanol on my OHV bike, needed a 3mm fixed main jet plus a Mikuni adj. main jet, 3mm diameter with an external needle adjustment, about 1 turn 1/2 open. It used to drink methanol like there's no tomorrow, at 1/4 mile sprints I could do about 6 passes plus warming up in the padock with 8 litres in the tank...

From old timers tales, mostly true, do not mix gasoline with methanol, it's quite hard to tune properly... You'll be better off with straight methanol.

At one stage, I tried to run the OHV with a 38mm methanol spanish square Amal from a grass track bike... it did not last long, about 100 yards and the float chamber was empty, not enough coming in.

Solved it by fitting a German made twin float conversion, used on long track speedway there. It had 2 feeds and 2 needles about the same size as yours in it. But it was an ugly carb for a vintage bike, so went the S&S route after that...

It's also quite hard to judge carburation with methanol, spark plugs don't get the colors you'll be used to and it doesn't tell you when you're too rich, which is a problem since unburned fuel will pass the rings and wash your cylinders, loosing you compression. On a flat run, the engine don't load enought to tell you. I found the best tuning was gained when doing hill climbs and enrichen the mix until it accelerates cleanly uphill...

My little Terrot also runs on methanol, old type AMAC without needle and a 45 degree cutaway on the slide. That's only a 22.2mm carb, main jet, tuned dead nice, is 2.2mm. It's the massive cut away that leans the mixture.

Then there's the oil... No oil on the market likes methanol... Best run straight castor oil...

Patrick

[octane]

  Do you have a part number for this ARP product?

No, I'm afraid not.
They were ordered as individual bolts and washers from Allen's Fasteners.
They have a section for ARP products.
I ordered them in different lengths and specifications ( tensile strength , heat expansion rate , 'hardness' etc. )
with help from a friend who knows about these things ( which I don't )

[octane]

Hi Lars,

Roughly, you'll need twice as much methanol as required on a gasoline set up.

Yep.

1.8mm diameter main jet = 2.54sqmm

X 2 = 5.08 sqmm/3.1416 = 1.62 = rxr = 1.27 radius = 2.54mm diameter

My S&S MGAL, 47mm, when on methanol on my OHV bike, needed a 3mm fixed main jet plus a Mikuni adj. main jet, 3mm diameter with an external needle adjustment, about 1 turn 1/2 open. It used to drink methanol like there's no tomorrow, at 1/4 mile sprints I could do about 6 passes plus warming up in the padock with 8 litres in the tank...

WoW ! That's 8 liters ( more than 2 US gallons ) running 1½ mile ( ) ...are you sure ?

From old timers tales, mostly true, do not mix gasoline with methanol, it's quite hard to tune properly... You'll be better off with straight methanol.

OK but my thought was to adjust the mix with a bit of gasoline,
like if for instance I was running a bit too lean ( on methanol ) due to the restrictions in the carb
I would ad gas

At one stage, I tried to run the OHV with a 38mm methanol spanish square Amal from a grass track bike... it did not last long, about 100 yards and the float chamber was empty, not enough coming in.

Solved it by fitting a German made twin float conversion, used on long track speedway there. It had 2 feeds and 2 needles about the same size as yours in it. But it was an ugly carb for a vintage bike, so went the S&S route after that...

It's also quite hard to judge carburation with methanol, spark plugs don't get the colors you'll be used to and it doesn't tell you when you're too rich, which is a problem since unburned fuel will pass the rings and wash your cylinders, loosing you compression. On a flat run, the engine don't load enought to tell you. I found the best tuning was gained when doing hill climbs and enrichen the mix until it accelerates cleanly uphill...

My little Terrot also runs on methanol, old type AMAC without needle and a 45 degree cutaway on the slide. That's only a 22.2mm carb, main jet, tuned dead nice, is 2.2mm. It's the massive cut away that leans the mixture.

OK, but please check my calculations here.
Mind you: I could be way off as this is something I've never done before;

...before I was running a 2.35 main jet ...area = 4.2 sq.mm
but due to the restriction of the needle in the tube-thingy, in fact I only had a flow of 3.66 sq.mm
( hole 2.9 mm = 7.06 sq.mm . Needle area at full throttle ( 2mm diameter ) = 3.4 sq.mm......7.06 minus 3.4
---> effective area = 3.66 sq.mm )

...NOW the main jet is 3mm...area is 7.06 sq.mm
and this area IS effective as I've bored up the tube-thingy and raised the needle so the area around the needle is 13.8 sq.mm.

SO : what I should compare now are the numbers 3.66 and 7.06
meaning I have close to the double area now ( which is needed for running alcohol )
Might want to bore up the main a wee bit , though.

Does this make any sense ?

( I do realize these are just the musings of a semi-ignorant guy
punching a pocket calculator. Real life conditions may vary....a lot )

Then there's the oil... No oil on the market likes methanol... Best run straight castor oil...

Yes you're right.
I even made a test to see how alcohol would mix or not mix with ordinary oil
and it was discussed here Alcohol compatible oil / oil dilution

As you can see: that's now they do it over at their side of the pond.
They just don't have the stuff.

[octane]

As I think I've mentioned, I want to run alcohol mostly to cool things down.
If it fails then I guess I have to fall back on the earlier mentioned
 PRMWIT system.
You know : Passive Random Mechanical Water Injection Tuning ( rain )

If THAT fails ( depending on the weather situation ), I will be ready with the incredible SAHIK optional equipment:
( Space Age Hand-held Injection Kit)




OR
the newest development; the PrePumpableProfessionalWaterInjectionKit



Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey: it might work


OK , I'm nuts, but look at the carb,
it has a nifty redundant inlet here



that was blocked on both my carbs. Guess it's for some enrichment (?)
as the 'hole' itself is part of the "choke" enrichment system that I've blocked off on my carb.

How about hooking up a tube and a valve



and a small water-tank.




Of cause I wouldn't have the faintest whiff of an idea how much water one can 'inject'
but let's say it's set up only for wide open throttle and
activated by a fancy remote-controlled valve activated from the handlebar.
My guess is that the water will be thoroughly mixed into the gas
when tumbled in the blower

Am I insane ?
Probably.... but it's a lot of fun to let the mind wander.





Now back to work. I have a bike to 'finish'.

[saltwheels262]

lars,
a good figure on alcohol volume is 2.2 x the amount of gasoline you
would be using.
much research has gone into that figure from those that know way more than me.

franey

[charlie101]

You should get in contact with some speedway tuner folks, they work exclusivly with methanol. I can put you up with an address in Gothenburg.  I think i saw that you have some so and so drivers there in that tiny Denmark....whats his name....Niklas Petterson, Nicki Pedersen? When I think on speedway I can only think of the shanting that echoed at the circuits
Tony-Tony-Tony-Tony-Tony-Tony Richardson-  
I don't have experience with methanol, but as I understand it the mixture span is a lot larger before the engine is loosing power. If it is too lean the exhaust temperature rises and if it is too rich the flame goes out and the engine misses. So why not use extra methanol injection instead of the water you are thinking of and loose less power when injection cuts in but still have the cooling effect. A exh. temp gauge could determine when the valve should open.