INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011

[SPARKY]

Is there any material you could make the stud that is by the exhaust vlave area that would not grow so much? I bet it is growing more than the others. Or try cool the top and bottom of it with water or something.

[Unkl Ian]

Something tells me it is warping , more or less, along this line
which is obviously not 'supported' 'horizontally' as there are no
cooling-fins 'supporting' it in that direction



..shown from a different angle here

Why is there a slot, where the fins should meet ?
Is that a factory design ?

Is the head cast iron, same as the barrel ?

[SPARKY]

aparently you are loosing clamping force allowing the head to lift, blow the head gasket and warp.
I will still bet the stud is growing due to heat transfered from its base that is close to the exhaust port.

  A halo from above the head or a giant clamp that is not dependent on that stud that is mounted right by the exhaust port.

[ironwigwam]

I'm not sure about Octane and that stud by the exhaust port but it would be easy enough to add a water drip from the water tank in my case. Actually that stud is short to begin with as it can not breech the port

[thefrenchowl]

Hi all,

Somehow, I don't think the alloy head is the problem on an sv...

Side valves with cast iron heads distort the same!!!

Valves on the side, cast iron cyls, fresh cool intake on one end, hot exhaust on the opposite side, all this stuff hanging out in a bell tower away from piston, nobody can cure that, it's part and parcel of the design.

Best one can do is to try to get rid of as much heat as possible away from the combustion chamber or prevent the heat propagating too much, so, oldtimers' tricks: slot the cylinder's cooling fins on each side of the exhaust port, cooler fuels like methanol, enclosed valve stems/springs with oil circulation inside, run as little advance as you can get away with, do not use laminated/composite head gaskets, just plain ones, or better, delete them to get better control of the squish...

Patrick

[WhizzbangK.C.]

I think French Owl is on it. Especially the part about getting rid of the composite gaskets, but we talked about that before. 

Just throwing out some ideas here, I'll start with the disclaimer that I have no actual knowledge of anything at all, so take or leave any of the following as you wish. These are just some random brain droppings. 

One thing I'd be looking into if it were mine would be the head studs. It looks like you may have room to drill and tap for larger studs in the cylinders, at least the two on each cylinder on each side between the valves and cylinders. Offset the center line of the new larger holes so that you don't use up any more of the space between the studs and the combustion chamber. The larger studs would allow you to torque that area a little tighter to help control the deformation under pressure, and if you look at the design, it appears that the pressure against the head isn't evenly distributed on all the bolts, but rather is more concentrated on those two holes, causing the head to try to pull away from the cylinder in that spot. Also, like we discussed before, large thick washers to spread the clamping load out as much as possible, and machine the bearing face on top of the head to be flat to the washers. Possibly even build up some more with weld to spread it out even further.

It might even be beneficial to mill the gasket surface on the head so that there is a slightly proud lip (say .005 inch) all the way around the combustion chamber. That would allow it to press into a copper head gasket and really provide a good seal. It would be almost like having a true O-ringed head, which is not possible due to the limited space between the combustion chamber and the stud holes.

[SPARKY]

Stud girdles on bottom ends are made to "preload" main brg caps.  What about a "Stud Girdle bridge" that lets you have some "pre load" bolts from the bridge down to the head 

[octane]

Some things you might consider:

Stronger, smaller diameter, (and longer?) head bolts (which would be stretchier) at higher torque (preload).  To increase initial preload and then minimize its loss due to various (thermal?) distortions.

Re-torque after heat cycles.

Trim away the outside of the head gasket so that the gasket unit contact stress is higher and located more on the interior contour instead of spread across the relatively broad gasket land.

O-ring it.

Observer , you're giving good advise here.
Yep, other bolts are under consideration,
maybe some bolts ( some fancy SS-something material )
a friend showed me which has an expansion rate more similar
to aluminum , than the standard bolts

Yep, I will be a LOT more meticulous with the re-torque thing.
I'm afraid I did a sloppy job last time.

Others have surgested the O-ring thing. As I see it there just ain't 'room'
for it . The distance between the holes and the 'inside'/cumbustion chamber is just to small

Larry,
  As you may not know, I have worked on the cylinder pressure sealing area as well.
1. Machined heads and cylinders flat on mill first,
2. Added dowels so heads repeat their position on valves and also to slow head growth from heat.
3. Flat within .002, not good enough as I am not using head gaskets to increase compression
4. Now it is time to use lapping compond and a vibratory power unit to let eacjh surface ;ap it self to the other to be a perfect match.


Not to hijack this thread but only to explain my misguided effort.

No hijacking at all Rocky.
I am listening, but I just do not see myself running without gaskets.
It's purely guesswork of cause, but looking at my warping heads and cylinders
I just can not imagine it will work and btw. I'm NOT looking for the added compression,
that comes with it,
in fact I'd rather be looking for some reduced compression in my case

Is it possible to weld a knob onto the head. mill it flat, drill a hole in it?  Then drill and tap a hole in the same location on the cyl, and add a stud?

Yes, I guess it's possible, but I would be just a tiny bit afraid ( could very well be unfounded )
that adding more holes in the gasket , ( which would come with the added studs )
would create more "weak gasket area"s.

[octane]

Why is there a slot, where the fins should meet ?
Is that a factory design ?

Yes it is.
Looking from above ( red arrow = direction of passing air )



...it's obvious that it's what INDIAN concidered to be the design that
gave the best air-flow .
"Closing" the V-formation would "trap" the air

Is the head cast iron, same as the barrel ?

No the heads are aluminum, the cylinders cast iron

[octane]

aparently you are loosing clamping force allowing the head to lift, blow the head gasket and warp.
I will still bet the stud is growing due to heat transfered from its base that is close to the exhaust port.

  A halo from above the head or a giant clamp that is not dependent on that stud that is mounted right by the exhaust port.

Stud girdles on bottom ends are made to "preload" main brg caps.  What about a "Stud Girdle bridge" that lets you have some "pre load" bolts from the bridge down to the head  

You're in line with Moen from Indian Spare Parts there
if I understand you right.
Like a big fat 'ring' that I would sit on to the head, with holes
in the same position as the head-holes.
Clamp it down with longer head-bolts.
The 'ring' would have threaded holes with bolts that goes down on the head
in between the head-bolts.......right ?
He suggested the same thing.
Would probably work. The problem with it is time and money.
Would have to be precisely cut and milled.
Slightly complicated to fabricate as one would have to make it a funny shape
that 'raises' it in the area around the spark-plugs. Otherwise they won't come out or in.

[pookie]

Hi Lars,  How about a stud girdle that goes across the head , 2 bars of aluminum and then tie them in to the bolts/studs that  keep the cylinders to the case.. Just a thought..   Mike R.

[octane]

Hi all,

Somehow, I don't think the alloy head is the problem on an sv...

Side valves with cast iron heads distort the same!!!

Valves on the side, cast iron cyls, fresh cool intake on one end, hot exhaust on the opposite side, all this stuff hanging out in a bell tower away from piston, nobody can cure that, it's part and parcel of the design.

I'm not alone !!!!
.-)
Thanks Patrick !

Best one can do is to try to get rid of as much heat as possible away from the combustion chamber or prevent the heat propagating too much, so, oldtimers' tricks: slot the cylinder's cooling fins on each side of the exhaust port

Sorry , my English is lacking: what exactly does that mean ?
Could I please ask you to explain ?

cooler fuels like methanol,

Check. Will do !

enclosed valve stems/springs with oil circulation inside

Woohaa , beyound my scope

run as little advance as you can get away with

Check. Will do. I REALLYREALLYREALLY need to get this silly contraption
ready in time to get it on a dyno.
The ignition timing I did last time was a joke to be honest.

do not use laminated/composite head gaskets, just plain ones

Check. Will do

or better, delete them to get better control of the squish...

Mmmmmm naaaaaa, see above

[octane]

I think French Owl is on it. Especially the part about getting rid of the composite gaskets, but we talked about that before.  

Yep. Good to see ya' here Ed.
Are you coming this year ?

Just throwing out some ideas here, I'll start with the disclaimer that I have no actual knowledge of anything at all, so take or leave any of the following as you wish. These are just some random brain droppings.  

I'll try'n catch them

One thing I'd be looking into if it were mine would be the head studs. It looks like you may have room to drill and tap for larger studs in the cylinders, at least the two on each cylinder on each side between the valves and cylinders. Offset the center line of the new larger holes so that you don't use up any more of the space between the studs and the combustion chamber. The larger studs would allow you to torque that area a little tighter to help control the deformation under pressure, and if you look at the design, it appears that the pressure against the head isn't evenly distributed on all the bolts, but rather is more concentrated on those two holes, causing the head to try to pull away from the cylinder in that spot.

Your random brain droppings are making perfect sense.
I'm listening

Also, like we discussed before, large thick washers to spread the clamping load out as much as possible, and machine the bearing face on top of the head to be flat to the washers. Possibly even build up some more with weld to spread it out even further.

The bearing faces are machined 'flat'
and in fact there is room for bigger washers. Not much but still:

It might even be beneficial to mill the gasket surface on the head so that there is a slightly proud lip (say .005 inch) all the way around the combustion chamber. That would allow it to press into a copper head gasket and really provide a good seal. It would be almost like having a true O-ringed head, which is not possible due to the limited space between the combustion chamber and the stud holes.

Sounds like a good idea. I'll have to think it over.

Hi Lars,  How about a stud girdle that goes across the head , 2 bars of aluminum and then tie them in to the bolts/studs that  keep the cylinders to the case.. Just a thought..   Mike R.

Mike, I'm afraid that again perhaps my English is lacking.
I think it's a good idea ( if I understand you right )
but that's the same thing that Sparky ( and Moen ) suggested ?....or ?

I apologize to those of you ( probably several ) that I misunderstand
or maybe just plain don't understand.
Some times I just don't get the finer points of the English language.

[octane]

Thanks all !
I'm truly grateful for all your advise.
Please don't get me wrong if I do not follow all your advise.
Does in no way imply that it's not good advise,
just that time and money makes it impossible
or the simple fact that I can no follow them all as some
are somewhat contradicting.

Take it in a positive way:
when I blow this little devil to smithereens
it won't be because of your advise

.-)

In fact I've made a list of them and will contemplate all
and judge what can be done.
I do believe that some, if not most of the problems are due to excess heat:
bad ignition timing , maybe bad jetting and the simple fact that a
supercharged flat-head should be run on alcohol to cool things down.

There's a few thing that I most probably will do and not do:

The idea of supporting the heads by welding on an 'upright' piece



...is out.
It will disturb the airflow. Don't wanna do that.

The newest idea is to weld on additional material at the points where
there is the least material to support the gasket



...and of cause flat it down to be flush with the head-surface.
Seamed to be the area where the gaskets broke up.

...copper gaskets
...bigger washers
...new bolts

I'll look into the 'girdle'-idea but I'm afraid I just won't have the time to do it.

I'll bring a spare set of heads.
Moen found a set for me



...a few fins are broken and I need to have the washer 'bearing' surfaces machined etc.
but they'll work and having an extra set gives a certain peace of mind.



Is this then the end of the troubles ?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!

Checked the valves:



Goodness this little devil certainly is intend to self-destruct fastlike:
One exhaust valve was ever so slightly bend,
as in: the head was not in angle with the stem
and the other exhaust was worse
AND the stem was pitted



Huh ?
I can find no explanation but violently excessive heat. ( )
There was no trace of the valves interfering with the head.

So what could I do but call the local Indian Parts Delivery Service ?
Some call for pizza delivery.
No me.
Moen dropped by on his wonderful little Moto Morini



...with a set of valves
and after a bit of lapping



..in they want.

So was this the end of the troubles ?


Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!

The machinist working on my crank called.
Baaaaaad news:
when putting in and torquing up the nuts on the crank-shaft...
( I'm  not sure about the right English term; I'm talking about the shaft that holds together the flywheels
on which the rods are attached)
...it flipping broke !
Huh ?
No sure explanation except this IS a weak point:
when INDIAN when from 'splash' "lubricating" the shaft/con-rod big-ends
to pressure lubrication , they basically used the old part except they bored
 a hole straight into it at the timing-side end of this relatively small diameter thing
( and then holes out to the big-end bearings )
so thereby turning that end into a relatively thin-walled tube
 instead of a proper shaft.
( the hole is plugged with a thingy ( dunno the term )

Who said this would be simple and easy ?!!!

Anyways, he is now mounting a shaft of his own making.

What can I say ?!!!
One could argue ( with great persuasion ) that this whole endeavor is plain idiotic:
an anaemic seventy-something old engine with a 'technology' firmly based on
what was available more like a hundred years ago:
as Moen said yesterday: take the con-rods,
with very little difference they are similar to nineteen-twenties INDIAN rods
which most probably weren't even state of the art at that time.

...and that's I try it to turn into a
salt-ripping  "fast" racer...ha ha ha !
But h*ll: I like it, and besides I gotta work with what I've got
and work my way to improve it.
Better stop making dumb mistakes.



Again: thanks you all for helping me making a bit less foolish mistakes !





"..The road to wisdom ?
Well it's plain and simple to express:
Err and err again
but less and less and less.."

Piet Hein

[SPARKY]

What I have in mind is like Iron Wiggwams jig (see previous post) for the oversized head studs   then drill holes in the plate and tapp for bolts to screw down to the head with a spreader much like a floating end of a C clamp.

Torque the heads down with the studs then preload the the bolts---someone smarter than me will have to advise you on how the torques on the various studs and bolts would need to be.   some or all of the fins would have to be milled off where the "feet" reached down