INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011

[octane]

In the lower left side of the piston picture it appears that the edge of the piston is damaged. ....

 Lars,  Whizzbang KC is definitely correct about the piston.. ( ..snip..).... The lip of the piston looks to be eroded away.

For once I am happy to announce: you're wrong

.-)

Guys !..you got me all nervous, so I rushed by the workshop...cleaned the piston top
and naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa: it's perfectly fine

Is there any scoring on the cylinder wall...

Checked that too.
No scoring whatsoever !

[octane]

I'll bet you a beer at the Black and White next year that surfacing them the way you did left them "not perfectly flat". The thin areas between the combustion chamber and the bolt holes would tend to be sanded down ever so slightly more than the thicker areas due to the way the paper and lose abrasive behave when doing it that way.....

It could very well be that you are right !

BUT let me ad that the way I do it , to make certain that it IS in fact flat
and does not have any 'valleys' or high points, is this :
( I don't have pics from when I did the heads but it's the similar method used here )

I use a marker and draw on it



...and any high-points will show up like this:  marker-marking (huh) sanded off



Then re-apply with marker....sand again...low-points will show up ( marking still present )....re-apply with marker etc. etc.
till I reach a point where ALL markings will disappear during one sanding.
Theoretically (!) this should guarantee that the surface is flat within
a tolerance of the 'thickness' of the marker-ink-layer.....er......kind of

[octane]

Det min gode ven. bedste succes med deres motorcykel Henledte

Drew

p.s.
I hope that came out correctly

LOL
Close enough.

Tak min ven  !

.

[octane]

Howdy Lars,  The ONLY way you can get a valid plug reading is to clutch and kill the engine simultaneously while it is at full speed.. Any other way is a exercise in futility.. Kinda like pissing into the wind.. That black stuff could be oil that worked its way past the rings, REMEMBER you did not beak in the engine  and the engine tolerances were set up on the "loose' side.  The black stuff could also be excessive fuel that was not burned completely, could be slightly gooey and tacky.

You're making perfect sense on both counts

Didn't you say in your build sheet you were thinking  about running alcohol?? Did you?

Nope.
Gave it a try at first with a 50/50 gas/alcohol mix, but realized I didn't have jets big enough,
so gave up that idea for the moment , but I will try again after I've had it on the dyno
and have established a 'starting point' from witch to work.
I'll do it first and foremost for the cooling effect...a blown flat-head gets flipping hot...at least this one does.

Here's an interesting picture



HUH ...no fins ?!??
Yes, those are INDIAN heads;
"... a special set of aluminum scout heads for a 45 alcohol burning hill climber.
As developed by Clem Murdaugh on his way to a national AMA #1 champion hill climber in 1940...."
..obviously they had problems getting the engine hot enough !

The picture I borrowed from Rocky's / Ironwigwam
homepage: IronWigWam
Check out his absolutely wonderful collections of old PICTURES

If you ran gas your plugs will look 1 way but if it is alcohol  they will look differant than gas..

Yep.
Found something on the subject here:  Blown Alcohol Motor Spark Plug Reading 101

1 thing else you are tuning a 50 year +or - old technology that means you have to use "back in the day" knowledge and experience. You know, Fred Flintstone stuff..

Yep; and in fact the engine is 70 years old.

...Are this picture and the plug with the deteriorated porcelain from the cylinder that cut a groove in the head when the gasket failed?

Nope, but this cylinder had a small gasket-leak as well, so the mixture etc. was messed up as well here, I guess

Lars, the machining leaves a slightly rough surface which helps retain the gasket especially when it's a fibre one. This will probably help as well with the existing gasket, although I'd rather still see a solid copper one.

Me too !

[octane]

Lars, you are struggling.  It is best if I do not give technical recommendations.  I am more of a brit bike kind of guy.  This is how I work.  First, I start with a standard engine as designed by the factory, more or less.  I ride it and learn about how it works, how the parts color with carbon, etc., and what it feels and sounds like.  The proper fuel, ignition timing, plugs etc.  Then I change something.  I ride it some more.  It is easy to figure out what causes any problems.  It is the last thing I changed.  I get everything working good.  Then I move on to the next step.  Lots of notes, etc.  You can see this in my build.  I ran a bone stock engine in 2007.  A bone standard engine with a ported head in 2008 and 2009.  Two years with this setup?  It took me a couple to get everything working.  A mildly hopped up engine in 2010.  More fine tuning on this same engine in 2011.  The lower end is built for a blower and one might be installed in the future, if I find the money.  It will not happen until I get the NA setup completely figured out and working. 

Sometimes when I have problems I go back to the last known good setup and start over.

Pure race motors are something I rarely built.  When I did, I put them in a street chassis and broke them in, troubleshooted all sorts of problems, set the mixture, and then I put them in the race chassis.  All of the work on my Triumph gets figured out on the road as best as I can. 

This is not telling anyone what to do or the best way.  It simply is a different approach to doing things. 

Bo: I like your way of doing things.
In my case I just didn't have ( or take ) the time to do it this way
and I'm not sure I would have the patience.

.... I am more of a brit bike kind of guy....

Me too !

My first bike was a TriBsa; an A10 BSA frame with a Triumph Speed Twin engine.

Here it is back in 1978 from a road-trip with my girlfriend at the time



I bought that bike 32 years ago and I still have it !
It's been through a few rebuilds and  'permutations' since then, and the last time I saw it
before putting it in store a couple of years ago, the sorry little thing looked like this



Then for a while I had a 650 pre-unit Triumph with a frame stretched 4", that I started working on
( actually the blower on the INDIAN was bought for this Triumph )



...then I started changing it into a LSR look-a-like  ( blue thingy is a blower 'stand-in' )



Then I got the silly idea after visiting Bonneville in 2008 that it would be a hole lot more
fun to build an actual LSR bike and in the process
I got insane and decided to do it with an INDIAN engine as the base.

All the while my 650 pre-unit BSA, that I've had for 10 years is still waiting for me to
finish the second rebuild I've done on it



I just can't wait to finish it: it's an absolute wonder to ride,



...except I need new Ceriani front forks ,
as I ripped them of the Beeza...shortened them ...and put them on the INDIAN...oops !

[octane]

For those of you who enjoy watching all kinds of vintage motorcycle racers,
check this out:

Vintage Grand Prix

.

[desperate]

Lars, that picture of the stripped A10 brought back memories. I could get hold of those parts and put the lot together in a day, as my second love after Indians, was A10's. Here's a picture of one of mine built @1978, 1954 A7 plunger frame, A7 gearbox, A7 engine but with Super Rocket crank, rods, barrels & ally head. This was in the days before they invented silly names for bikes, like Bobber, or Lowrider. Forks were about 8" over, and the whole bike cost me £50 to build, which was a lot back then.

[ironwigwam]

Lars,
   Here is a PIC of my 4th generation of Indian titanium rockers with a Climax cam set. Note how the cam is balanced so it is harmonious with itself.
   I have begun a 5 th generation of magnesium lifters with three rollers, as soon as they are finished, I can loan these to you if you like?
  Thats all I know for now, let the shooting begin.
   Rocky
   1957 S/VG
   1959 M/BG

[AHG]

That is one hell of a cam profile!

[ironwigwam]

AHG,
  That is a Climax #3 designed by my father and Clem Murdaugh, probably  first tried in 1950.
   Rocky

[octane]

Lars,
   Here is a PIC of my 4th generation of Indian titanium rockers with a Climax cam set. Note how the cam is balanced so it is harmonious with itself.
   I have begun a 5 th generation of magnesium lifters with three rollers, as soon as they are finished, I can loan these to you if you like?

Thank you very much for your kind offer Rocky. I'll get back to you on that.




WOW ! Those rock'ing rollers look fantastic compared to the original , rather crude looking ones, see below on my engine ( before rebuild ). Every time I see them they still appear real weird to me,
what with that high and steep cam-lobe profile and the single cam common for both in- and exhaust




I like the fact that they have rollers where they touch/lift the 'push-rods',unlike the originals that 'rubs' the push-rods''

[octane]

Lars, that picture of the stripped A10 brought back memories. I could get hold of those parts and put the lot together in a day...

Chris, I'm sure you could do it in a matter of minutes ,after watching how fast you build your brilliant Indian LSR,

.. my second love after Indians, was A10's...

Yeah , it's one hell of a good looking frame

[charlie101]

Brilliant machine work on those lifters. Actually those are hardened pads pinned to the lifters. With clever profiling theres no scrubbing at the push rods and actually can add some lift. Rollers here would put unneccesary weight on. A 3 parted offset roller sounds interesting, it would change some int. versus exh. cam timing I think.

[Hughlysses]

Lars- I just made my first visit to Bonneville last week, found this forum, and stumbled across your build thread for your Indian.  What an amazingly cool project.

I don't know much about Indians, but I do have some experience with a Hudson Hornet flathead 6 engine (308 cubic inches!) and they were known for having head gasket problems.  I've read many tips about getting them to seal properly and some of these might help with your Indian.  Several of the tips are consistent with suggestions you've already been given (use copper gaskets, applying "copper coat" gasket sealer, etc.) but here are a few others that might be of interest:

- Slightly chamfer all the bolt holes in the cylinders and cylinder head before installation.  Supposedly if this isn't done, the metal around the bolts tends to be stretched first so that much of the bolts' clamping force is expended right around the bolt holes over-compressing the gasket in these areas and providing insufficient compression of the gasket between the bolt holes.  This doesn't appear to be your problem as it looks like the gaskets failed AT the bolt holes rather than between them.

- Use studs rather than bolts to hold the heads.  Studs are said to provide superior clamping force. 

- Use hardened flat washers under the nuts on the head.  These are available from auto performance shops.  Apparently the idea is the washers won't distort, and they cause less friction on the underside of the nuts, resulting in more clamping force for a given torque.

- Make sure your heads haven't been milled excessively in the past, which can make the head too thin and prone to gasket failures.  Again, this doesn't seem like your problem given that your compression check found 6:1 compression. 

Good luck with your project.  I'll be very interested to watch your progress.

Hugh

[charlie101]

Cool to see more flathead fans here. Here's an interesting site with some meat on modifying heads, and alot more. I know, car engines isn't the same, but some ideas might be had. Nothing about head gaskets thou.
http://www.midstateantiquestockcarclub.com/flat_heads3.html
Flatfire seems to have a groove in the head only for a thin copper wire, the block seems to be flat.
http://www.flatfire.com/flatfire2.htm
I've been browsing Ebay and the net for more info on Jr. dragster flathead mods, but it's thin. What's up with the fire slot?
Great and really informative photos Lars, I guess the oil pattern is from when you rolled off the throttle, vaacuum got high in the comb.compartment and pistons got cooler, sucking up some oil. Fantastic to get a wiew of the swirl pattern on the piston top! I found a great article on copper head gaskets.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1260/engine_sealing_high_performance_head_gaskets.aspx
Thanks Pookie, the info I'm searching is mainly for learning more and in the end apply on an Indian engine, I'm not into Jr drag in particular.  Bobs 4cycle is a large site. Induction and head design tends to be a guarded secret in most cases.