Author Topic: EFI straight eight Buick  (Read 142096 times)

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Offline GH

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #195 on: August 20, 2010, 07:52:10 PM »
Chris, we are in Moab Utah visiting some friends. The Buick now has a large hole in the left side of the block and a smaller one on the right side. It appears that the number 2 rod is gone. We had issues with it running not so good. The last run it went 142 in the 1/4 but didn't make it too much farther. My car lost the left turbo at the 4-1/4 mile on my one and only run. Not too good of a Speedweek for the hillybillies from Missouri.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #196 on: August 21, 2010, 03:02:51 AM »
Gary, Mike, we had really high hopes for you and the Buick -  as I'm sure you did, also.  I can't remember who has it as their tag line, but I think it goes, "Records, hearts or parts - something always gets broken".

So this is the # 2 rod again - not sure if that's significant.  It's such a tough combination - long crank, long block, long rods, 5 mains, heavy reciprocating mass, fuel balance on shared ports.  And it's not like you're using dainty parts.  Not a lot of development on this combination - you're breaking a lot of new ground.

Thinking out loud, I'm wondering if there's a stiffness issue with the block, and perhaps girdling it might help.  Speculation at this point.

I hope you continue with this and figure it out.  Let us know what the tear down tells you, and have a safe trip home.

Hope to meet you on the salt in August, 2011. :cheers:

Chris
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

saltfever

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #197 on: August 21, 2010, 03:44:41 AM »
Jane McMeekin got a XO/GALT record at 167.4 in Don's Buick straight eight. No EFI, had two carbs. Don said he wants to sell the motor. Car number 280.

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #198 on: September 02, 2010, 01:16:17 PM »
   Well, it's back together and we'll load it next week for World Of Speed. The smoke is from the header wrap. We'll try to keep the other smoke on the inside this time. Enjoy,
  Doug   Short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-8JwyoFh6E
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline GH

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #199 on: September 03, 2010, 08:32:30 AM »
Doug, looks good, I don't have any sound in my laptop so I can't hear it. I wish you good luck back on the salt, go real fast and have a great time.

Offline SavageHornpoke

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #200 on: September 05, 2010, 09:52:46 AM »
I have a buick straight eight engine, 320 ci, in my garage. Unfortunately, it is completely disassembled
because the aluminum pistons were siezed up in the block, and I had to remove the crank to pound them
through---and they did not come out easy.

I am working overseas now, and if I could, I would put it together to test my theories on the subject of
siamese port EFI. My gut feeling is that something is wrong with peoples reasoning that Siamese ports can't be fuel injected.

All engines that have EVEN numbers of cylinders, should have cylinder "Pairs". So if I take cylinder #1 for example at top dead center = 0 degrees, there should be another cylinder paired with it (which I will call it's "brother cylinder"), which is also at TDC = 0 degrees.

And if cylider # 1 is at the top of its compression stroke, beginning its power stroke at TDC = 0, then its paired "brother" cylinder will be at TDC = 0 degrees, but at the top of it's exhaust stroke, just beginning it's intake stroke.

If you have an eight cylinder engine, then there should be 4 paired brothers, and these pairs should be 90 degrees appart----so that pair 1 is at TDC = 0 degrees, Pair 2 will be at 90 degrees, Pair 3 will be at 180 degrees, and Pair 4 will be at 270 degrees.

If you have a six cylinder engine, then there are only 3 pairs---with pair 1 at TDC = 0 degrees, Pair 2 at 1/3 of a 360 degree rotation, and the third pair at 2/3rds of 360 degree rotation.

On my Jeep 6 cyl 258 engine, even though each cylinder has its own intake port, (and if I remember correctly when I was rebuilding it), the "brother" pistons were not adjacent to each other.

At this point I want to make it clear that although "brother" piston pairs are in sync with one another, but because we are talking about a 4 stroke engine, which completes a 1/2 of its mechanical cycle in 360 degrees, and completes its full mechanical cycle in 720 degrees, the two pistons are mechanically 360 degrees out of sync with each other. So while piston 1 is at TDC 0 degrees, at the end of its compression stroke and beginning its power stroke, the "brother" piston is at TDC 0 degrees ending its exhaust stroke and beginning its intake stroke.

So if, a piston pair, were co-located adjacently to one another, and were to share a "Siamese" exhaust port and share a "siamese" intake port, The ports would be in theory, 100% dedicated to one piston at a time, and there would be no valve interference dispute about EFI and "siamese" ports. In theory, if this were the case, the valves on one piston are completely closed, while its "brother" piston goes through the opening and closing of both valves.

So if you look at a crank shaft of the Buick 320 CI straight eight, I think I remember that you can visually see that "Brother" pistons are not co-located together adjacently. And I have heard that the reason they
are never adjacent to one another in sequence is because it causes severe harmonic vibrations.

However, in a straight 4 cylinder car, If I see only 2 siamese intake ports, I think that may be proof enought that the cyliders are indeed paired adjacently in sequence. And if I see 3 ports, (one siamese, and two dedicated), then I can assume that the pairs are not adjacently in sequence.

I wish that I could examine that crank shaft of my straight eight sitting in my garage.


Offline RichFox

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #201 on: September 05, 2010, 02:28:12 PM »
If you want to know which cylinders are paired you need only to look at the firing order  1625 8374 to see that 1 and 8 would be up at the same time as well as 6 and 3 and so on. Cylinders sharing an intake port are obvious 1 and 2  3 and 4 5 and 6 and 7 & 8. None share an exhaust. So what is your theory and will it require a billet crank? Normal 4 cylinder firing order is 1342. 1 and 4 are up togeather and 3 and 2. Straight sixs are 153624. You may be trying to reinvent the Winfield 2 up 2 down crankshaft.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 02:36:45 PM by RichFox »

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #202 on: September 18, 2010, 02:05:29 AM »
The problem with siamesed ports (for a Model B at least) is the "dead" time between intake cycles.  During this dead time fuel is continuing to be deposited into the shared port and the intake valve that opens first gets a very large mass of fuel and then the intake valve that opens second only gets about half the fuel that the first cylinder got.  So obviously one cylinder will run lean and the other will run rich. 

What it comes down to is very precise injection events.  For EFI to work properly on a siamesed port engine the injector timing and advance must be spot on.  We're outfitting our latest Model B with an AEM EFI system and we're going to use one pyrometer and o2 sensor per cylinder in order to correctly tune the system to deliver an even amount of fuel to all cylinders up to 6000 rpm.

I should be able to let you know how it works out early next year.
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline RichFox

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #203 on: September 18, 2010, 07:45:44 AM »
I remember you talking about five main bearing cranks. If you were having a crank made it wouldn't cost anymore to get a two up two down crank so that the timing events would be equal for each cylinder. Did you think about doing this. I did think about it for the Dodge but just couldn't go for it. If it worked for Winfield why wouldn't it work now?

Offline johnneilson

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #204 on: September 18, 2010, 11:00:41 AM »
Nathan,

What are you using for the trigger pickup?

I was thinking about using a Haltech full sequencial setup on one. (4 injectors, 2 ports, independent FP adjustment per inj).

John
As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #205 on: September 18, 2010, 12:08:04 PM »
If it worked for Winfield why wouldn't it work now?

Winfield made a billet crank (for the Model T) with numbers one and two up and numbers three and four down.  He also redesigned the camshaft so that the firing order was 1-3-2-4, and this separated each intake puls so that all cylinders were fueled equally.  It did, however, create balancing problems and Winfield admitted "it had a little vibration."

But did it go!....Winfield beat a field of overhead valve and overhead cam engines, including Frontenac and Miller at Ascot Speedway in January 1928.


Dean Batchelor, The American Hot Rod, 1995, page 37.

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline RichFox

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #206 on: September 18, 2010, 01:05:43 PM »
If it worked for Winfield why wouldn't it work now?

Winfield made a billet crank (for the Model T) with numbers one and two up and numbers three and four down.  He also redesigned the camshaft so that the firing order was 1-3-2-4, and this separated each intake puls so that all cylinders were fueled equally.  It did, however, create balancing problems and Winfield admitted "it had a little vibration."

But did it go!....Winfield beat a field of overhead valve and overhead cam engines, including Frontenac and Miller at Ascot Speedway in January 1928.


Dean Batchelor, The American Hot Rod, 1995, page 37.

Mike
I know what he did. My question is why don't any of us have the nerve to try it now?

Offline panic

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #207 on: September 18, 2010, 01:09:46 PM »
Always happy to help.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 07:00:37 PM by panic »

Offline panic

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #208 on: September 18, 2010, 01:10:19 PM »
have the nerve to try it now

Nerve is spelled $$$$$

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: EFI straight eight Buick
« Reply #209 on: September 18, 2010, 01:26:14 PM »
Yeah, Rich, I know.  I put the info up for others.  :mrgreen:

Creel had a batch of billet cranks made, and I don't think they were terribly expensive, or, at least, Pete Richardson didn't think so when he bought one.  Those were 5-main cranks, I think.

Mike

Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!