Info that may help someone else re: engine swaps for Honda Insight & class

[LSR M5]

I have been researching the idea of running a Honda Insight with a number of different powertrains for a few months now (well, pretty much since the flight home from Speedweek ) and thought this information may be useful for others.

I got a response back from Jim Miller regarding my inquiry about putting a like-branded motorcycle engine in a car for the GT class.

I wanted to put a CBR1000RR engine in the Insight and run it under GT. This isn't legal, but not only for the reason I expected. Yes, it is not legal for the following reasons, which I pretty much anticipated:

My biggest (problem) is in paragraph 2 on page 74. it says ....as long as the original running gear design is retained...  When you swap out the transaxle with electric motor hookup, half shafts etc you change the original design as the bike engine has a clutch inside it's case and is chain driven. Engine swaps are allowed from the same mfg. If you then go to pg 70, 5.E it says engine...as purchased from any AUTOMOBILE Dealer... If the engine in question was used in any Honda Automobile, no problem.

However, there is another problem with the Insight because it is a hybrid:

Our Impound man pointed out Pg 71 last paragraph. Another problem is if you swapped out a motor in a hybrid you would have to keep all the battery packs etc and the OEM throttle body.

Everyone queried on this change (Coupe and Sedan and Mod Sports/GT committee and Impound said the car has to run in Mod. Sports.

Perhaps this is why the Insight #2010 didn't run at this year's Speedweek? It was G/GT as I recall... under the above, that's not legal unless he put in a G engine but kept the hybrid running gear.

So, there you have it. My questions have all been answered (for now). As the rules are written right now and as I interpret the above:

-If you do an engine swap in an Insight, you cannot run it in GT unless you retain the hybrid running gear.
-You cannot run a motorcycle engine in a car in GT unless that motorcycle engine was available from a car dealer, but even then it might still not be legal because of the difference in the way the transaxle is connected.

[Milwaukee Midget]

I thought he did run!  There's pictures of it here

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4534.msg61978.html#msg61978

[LSR M5]

I thought he did run!  There's pictures of it here

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4534.msg61978.html#msg61978

I looked for his number in the run logs online and didn't see it. Perhaps I missed it.

[Mac]

That's because he seized the engine on the first run. I presume we are talking about the Honda Insight sponsored by Hasport?

Mac

[brian g]

However, there is another problem with the Insight because it is a hybrid:

Our Impound man pointed out Pg 71 last paragraph. Another problem is if you swapped out a motor in a hybrid you would have to keep all the battery packs etc and the OEM throttle body.

Everyone queried on this change (Coupe and Sedan and Mod Sports/GT committee and Impound said the car has to run in Mod. Sports.

Perhaps this is why the Insight #2010 didn't run at this year's Speedweek? It was G/GT as I recall... under the above, that's not legal unless he put in a G engine but kept the hybrid running gear.

So, there you have it. My questions have all been answered (for now). As the rules are written right now and as I interpret the above:

-If you do an engine swap in an Insight, you cannot run it in GT unless you retain the hybrid running gear.
-You cannot run a motorcycle engine in a car in GT unless that motorcycle engine was available from a car dealer, but even then it might still not be legal because of the difference in the way the transaxle is connected.

I'm not so sure that would be the final word on the Insight. It seems to me the GT class is treated differently than the other Production classes since it the only one that allows an engine swap. The engine swap rules are very clear that "An engine swap is defined by the use of an engine from an engine design family not available as a factory or dealer installed option for a vehicle year is used." I'm sure everyone agrees that means you can swap out the hybrid engine for another Honda automobile engine (even if it's non-hybrid).

Now that brings us the the opening sentence of the last paragraph on page 71. "Vehicles using a hybrid power source..." I'll stop there. It seems to me if the car is not using a hybrid power the rest of the paragraph is no longer applicable.

Clearly the SCTA is treating the GT class differently than the other Production classes, otherwise it would have a Gas Coupe style class for these cars.

Brian Gillespie
Hasport Performance, Inc.

[dwarner]

Brian,

If you Insight came with a hybrid set up and you wish to remain in GT you must use the OEM stuff. You can swap in another Honda engine if you wish.

DW

[brian g]

I have a couple of questions Dan...
If I had a a stock bodied Civic Hybrid or Prius and wanted to run it with the stock body without the hybrid running gear it would be classified as a Gas Coupe, correct?

There is no "Gas Coupe" equivalent classification for GT. The GT class allows for and engine swap. In fact, the GT car rules almost identical to the Gas Coupe rules. I'm sure this was done for a reason, do you know what it is?

It was also my understanding that the class specific rules take precedent over the general category rules. Obviously I'm incorrect, what is the correct interpretation?

Thank you very much for your time.

brian g

[dwarner]

Brian,

The general category rules take precedent over the additional class rules.

The general trend for OEMs in this generation of cars is to work with the smallest body available with the smallest engine available to meet certain government regulations. The manufacturers are also trying to develop product that will sell.

The classic hot rod deal is to find a small body and put a big engine in. The newer cars are certaintly the smallest we have ever seen. There is movement to find a way to incorporate the small cars while at the same time not obsoleting the current competitors. One option would be to limit which engine class could be run, i.e. G-J only. This would put the speed range around 230.

To answer the original question, once you remove the hybrid stuff you automatically move into the Gas Coupe class. The GT class is specifically noted as a "high speed touring" class. You may have a tough time making the point that a Prius is a high speed car. Most of the cars in you noted are marketed as coupes/sedans and not GTs so trying to place an Insight into the sports car classes is hard to do.

May I suggest you contact the class chairperson, Jim Miller. His contact info is in the back of your rulebook.

DW

[brian g]

The general category rules take precedent over the additional class rules.

To answer the original question, once you remove the hybrid stuff you automatically move into the Gas Coupe class. The GT class is specifically noted as a "high speed touring" class. You may have a tough time making the point that a Prius is a high speed car. Most of the cars in you noted are marketed as coupes/sedans and not GTs so trying to place an Insight into the sports car classes is hard to do.

May I suggest you contact the class chairperson, Jim Miller. His contact info is in the back of your rulebook.

DW

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Your first comment puzzles me, that would make all engine swaps in GT illegal since it falls under the production category. Wouldn't it?

I didn't mean to imply that the Civic Hybrid or Prius were GT cars, but was using them as an example as PRO cars and how with an engine swap they became Gas Coupe cars. And that there was no similar set of rules for GT class. And based on that, the engine swap was legal.

I believe though, that the Insight has already been accepted as a GT car. I will contact Jim to make sure.

brian g

[Stainless1]

No back seat, it should be GT and then MS if you pull the alternative drive... GT rules will override the general rules but always check with the scta for any official ruling...

Back seat, should be production and then GC if you do any engine swap...

Yes GT has a different set of rules, I believe those stem from the class changes when they dropped the Sports Racing class.  Old guys out there should remember....

[dwarner]

Stainless is correct.

The engine swap rules are different for the GT class. You must use the same manufacturer engine as the body, i.e. Ford/Ford, Chevy/Chevy(not GM/Chevy), Honda/Honda. I suggest that you get your plan in writing before cutting pipe on a GT with non-standard engine swap.

DW