Author Topic: Ugly Year  (Read 6615 times)

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Offline hotrod

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2008, 02:44:34 PM »
Quote
I think a positive pressure (if possible) system for the driver's area of confined bodies might help.

Actually you would only need a couple inches of water of positive pressure to prevent fire coming in, and for a smoke check.

You can run down to a theater and performing arts supply store in most major cities and rent a smoke generator for a day. Put it in the cockpit and turn it on and button everything up and watch to see where the smoke comes out. If you have the required drivers air vents all you would need to do is tape a hose to them from a boat bilge blower to apply a few inches of water pressure to the smoke filled cockpit and any openings will turn into old faithful geysers of smoke.

Some tuners use that sort of smoke system to find intake manifold leaks too, so it has other uses too!

I think a double layer fire wall would be good to consider in areas where you have penetrations like cabling and peddles. Put a second layer spaced a 1/2 inch or so from the fire wall proper so the fire needs to work its way through two gaps not one. That would significantly increase your burn time safety for very little cost.

Another idea would be intentional burn through ports some place in the engine compartment where the structure was intentionally designed so it would quickly burn through and provide a planned fire/smoke exit point. A small panel of low melting point styrene plastic designed to burn through quickly comes to mind, or a thin lead sheet or other low melting point material.

Larry

dwarner

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2008, 01:22:39 PM »
Another thing to consider when designing/building the body of your full bodied streamliner/lakester is incorporating fire extingusher doors. These would be in the engine compartment area of the body, spring loaded, so that a fire nozzle can be inserted instead of having to remove an engine cover before attacking the fire.

I had the task of twice going through this procedure on two different vehicles at the private meet. Smoke from the engine compartment and we were unable to get to the cause.

No, I don't know how big the access ports should be. Maybe Glen or Mike Kilger will have an idea.

DW

Offline Glen

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2008, 01:56:38 PM »
As a person that was involved for many years on the emergency response team I have seen many things that scares each of us. Fire is always the worst issue to deal with. Like Dan said a spring loaded port on each side of the engine compartment would be ideal. This allows quick access to contain the fire and allows the ERT people to work on getting the driver and other team members to start removing body panels.

Something else I would like to see is the addition of blow out panels like the funny cars run. This would get the pressure out of the engine compartment and keep the pressure from a major engine explosion from allowing the panels to expand and allowing the fire and fluids from coming forward into the cockpit area.

Dan also mentioned dams and drains to allow the fluids to escape through the bottom. I have several pictures of Dick Clarks lakester after his fire and how it came forward and the damage it caused. This lakester had a primary fire wall and a secondary firewall and well sealed, yet the expansion of the side panels allowed the fire to come forward when decelerating.

Funny cars also have a 4" round port on each side window to allow for the fire extinguisher nozzle to be put into the car. The other is the placement of the electrical disconnect switch so it can be located in a place for easy access for the ERT team.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 02:11:05 PM by Glen »
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Offline mkilger

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2008, 07:38:12 PM »
Dan,  most of the time the fire truck beats me to it but yes  a few small access panels may work good but we like to see (fire) before we would spray anything down.The panels should be about 3x3, just so you could look inside, to see were its coming from.  Good idea Dan :cheers:

dwarner

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2008, 07:52:25 PM »
"...dams and drains to allow the fluids to escape through the bottom. I have several pictures of Dick Clarks lakester after his fire and how it came forward and the damage it caused. "

The lack of a fence/dam at the base of the driver/engine bulkhead is what caused the injuries to Lynn Goodfellow. The seal that was used burned away and when the car slowed the 'lake' of fire came forward into the cockpit. The crew figured there was approx. 10 gallons of liquid missing from the tank.

Another point, Lynn opened the canopy to release smoke while he was slowing. The seal was damaged in that area. This allowed fire to come forward into the cockpit. I spoke to Mike, Terry and Cec from the Nish crew and they told me that opening the canopy in this situation is not something you want to do.

One of the parachutes could not be deployed because the fire had melted the retraining straps into a big blob.

Please take the time to look at your hot rod and try to find three areas that can be addressed to increase your safety and the peace of mind of your loved ones.

DW

saltfever

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2008, 10:25:54 PM »
Doug, thanx for starting this thread and also to all that have replied.

Regarding penetrations through the firewall like a brake pedal or throttle; A fireproof boot might be considered. The material could be something like you see for header wraping. I don't have a source but if it is weaved 1" or 2" like a cloth tape it must be available in wider weaves. I don't know the suitability of nomex or other materials fire suits are made out of but consider that also. The idea would be to create a boot like you see around a gear shift. One end would be clamped around the movable object and the other end would be secured to the firewall with a 360 deg metal flange or clamp. Another material is used in aircraft. If a movable part must penerate the pressure vessel, it is wrapped with a fireproof, flexible, usually convoluted, material that will allow movement as well as maintain the cabin pressure. -Elon

Offline doug odom

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2008, 11:07:51 PM »
Go to any parts store like PeP Boys-Kragans-etc. and look at the pickup truck after market fuel doors. They have some real neat ones that are about 4" dia. Big enough to put your hand inside to turn off or on a air bottle or battery switch and also check for any fire problems. Any one of many spring loaded car fuel doors would work also. I'm going to put one on each side of our liner.
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2008, 01:59:15 AM »
Regarding a fire proof boot for fire wall penetrations here are some useful products that could work for that. I use their thermo-sleeve over the Aeroquip-firesleeve on my fuel system

http://www.thermotec.com/thermo-sleeve.html
http://www.thermotec.com/thermo-flex.html
http://www.thermotec.com/download-catalog.pdf <---- full catalog

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/2009Individual/Cat09316.pdf
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/aqfiresleeve.php

A long sleeve of the aeroquip fire sleeve with an outer sleeve of the thermo-sleeve choked down at the end with a wire wrap or clamp would be very difficult for fire to get past. The fire proof shifter boot would be a good idea for both shifters and linkages that need to penetrate the fire wall.

I also use this heat barrier fabric for turbo heat shields.
http://www.thermotec.com/aluminized-heat-barrier.html

A couple layers of this with slits cut in it and the item threaded through the slits would also provide a pretty effective fire barrier in my opinion.
The reflective mylar coating burns off over time if the fabric rests directly on a very hot surface like a turbo hot side snail, but the fabric stands up to years of exposure to direct contact with a red hot turbo hotside in a daily driven car.

Larry

saltfever

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2008, 02:29:03 AM »
Good one, Larry. :-) Great site and that is the material I was thinking about. Here is a fireproof boot (although specs are missing). Something like this can also be used for firewall penetrations as well as the shifter.

http://www.thermotec.com/download-catalog.pdf

Offline DSR Bruts

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Re: Ugly Year
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2008, 03:53:16 PM »
I've got a Thermo-Tec Shift Boot on my car, and it is designed to be trimmed for all sizes of openings, just cut with a pair of scisors and screw down....I used the original fastening system that my Hurst Shifter Boot used.  Their other product are excellent also.  If you call them, they are more than willing to help and give you suggestions......
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