Author Topic: Somebody help clarify this  (Read 42766 times)

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Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2016, 05:36:58 AM »

Did Al Teague set the FIA flying start kilometre record at the speed stated on the FIA website?

The FIA lists Al Teague's flying start kilometre record in A - I - 11, on the 21st August 1981 [should be 1991], as 425.050 mph (684.052 kph) for the flying start kilometre.  The mile average on the same day is recorded as 409.695 mph (659.340 kph) [should be 409.978 mph (659.796 mph)]. 

Down run @ 5.52 pm

Kilo - 422.438 mph

Return run @ 6.40 pm

Kilo - 398.577 mph


Someone may have written a figure down incorrectly in the time attained for one of the kilometre passes.  Not even by using the fastest mile speed can Al Teague have set a record of 425.050 with only a single pass where just one distance is timed to give an average speed at 425.230 mph.   

My questions are - has the FIA a correct record 'on their books'?  and did Al Teague ever set records on the same pair of runs that differed by 16 mph between the mile and kilo?


Let's play 'predict the record'!   :-D

When the FIA LSRC has completed its deliberations what will Al's 1991 km record be?

  • 425.050 mph
  • 410.183 mph
  • 410.161 mph
  • 410.160 mph
  • None of the above - Al will still be credited with the record but at a different speed
  • None of the above - no speed will be ratified (and the previous record will be rescinded)

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2016, 08:56:42 AM »
Tricky - to suggest that US timekeepers, the national governing body who completed the report to the FIA and the governing body itself do not hold onto their information for World and International records is somewhat harsh to say the least. 

Because the speed is derived from averaging the times (in the FIA methods) of two consecutive runs,and not averaging the speeds, any guesses are almost irrelevant at the moment. Nearest is answer five on your list Tricky.

Having completed the runs safely there will be two times for Al through the kilo and as the man is so important to LSR I feel sure even someone at the event could have noted the figures.  Perhaps that person has never been on landracing.com to answer my question of eight years ago.

Who was on the clocks ........... DW should know?

Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2016, 10:15:27 AM »
Tricky - to suggest that US timekeepers, the national governing body who completed the report to the FIA and the governing body itself do not hold onto their information for World and International records is somewhat harsh to say the least. 

Because the speed is derived from averaging the times (in the FIA methods) of two consecutive runs, and not averaging the speeds, any guesses are almost irrelevant at the moment. Nearest is answer five on your list Tricky.

Having completed the runs safely there will be two times for Al through the kilo and as the man is so important to LSR I feel sure even someone at the event could have noted the figures.  Perhaps that person has never been on landracing.com to answer my question of eight years ago.

Who was on the clocks ........... DW should know?



Harsh but fair?  :lol:

I didn't pluck my numbers out of the air.  Reverse engineering the speeds you quoted from the timing slips gives an estimate of 5.2953 seconds for the first run and 5.6123 seconds for the return.  Note that the times seem to require 4 places of decimals to make the sums work.

Averaging these times and converting to a speed in mph gives 410.161 mph.

"Rounding off" the times to 5.295 seconds and 5.612 seconds (i.e. applying the algorithm that the FIA currently use) gives 410.183 mph.

The question of 3 or 4 places of decimals surprised me because the official mile record requires calculation using times to 4 places of decimals.  Using 3 decimal places would give 409.976 mph rather than the FIA figure of 409.978 mph.  So if the FIA recalculate Al's km speed, will they use today's algorithm or the 1991 version?  Perhaps David Tremayne can tell us??

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2016, 02:39:33 PM »
Probably not fair at all. Glenn knows the timekeeper (It was about post #13 in this thread). He also says the SCTA/BNI will have records.

I would expect for any British Isles located World records set in the last 25 years the times and speed calculations would be available.

The lack of a simple 3 decimal place answer suggests that the print out (or its computer) that I saw, was not operating to FIA regulations on the truncating at the 1/1000 (note this is not 'rounding') of the times taken to cross the mile or kilo. I did not suggest you were wrong on inaccurate in my earlier e mail, but 4 decimal places is not the FIA way so something is amiss.

So at the moment my thoughts remain that option 5 will prevail for historical interest, assuming Tom was then 1% faster. However as that requirement is no longer in the rule book of the FIA you may be correct Tricky that some other answer will emerge.

I do not think David Tremayne is on this forum - he may prove me wrong!
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2016, 04:48:42 PM »

I do not think David Tremayne is on this forum - he may prove me wrong!


Surely this forum is required reading for a member of the FIA LSRC!!

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2016, 02:11:51 AM »
Might be for those in the USA who are on the Commission to prevent some of the 'extravagant' claims. As most on this site do not wish to get involved with an International governing body then its not really going to happen. They (the FIA) have their own communication network and methods.
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2016, 08:47:52 AM »
I missed out a step when calculating the speed using the current FIA algorithm.  :roll:

Taking the mean of the times (5.295 seconds and 5.612 seconds) gives an average time of 5.4535 seconds.  This should then be truncated to 5.453 seconds.

Hence my (final) prediction is that Al's 1991 km speed of 425.050 mph will be changed to 410.221 mph in due course.  Tom Burkland comfortably beat this (plus 1%) in 2008.

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2016, 05:19:45 PM »
The FIA has quietly corrected Al's speed to 410.221 mph and added Tom Burkland as the current class record holder at 416.561 mph for the kilometre with flying start.

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

velocity

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2016, 06:46:44 PM »
News Alert || "LandSpeed" Louise Ann Noeth
July 17, 2016, Bonneville Salt Flats 


When Al Teague ripped across the Bonneville Salt Flats in September of 1991 he had no idea he’d be at the middle of a quarter century historical record problem. No one did.

When San Diego land speed racer Nolan White qualified on one of Teague’s records in 2002 he questioned Teague about 425 MPH kilo speed because he thought it didn’t add up.

Teague responded to White saying he was sure he attained 425MPH at least one-way. And that was the first time Al became aware there might be an issue, but being the consummate American hot rodder, he was only interested in speeds recorded in the flying mile. Flying kilometer speeds? Who cares?

White was killed while piloting his streamliner during a record attempt a month later, rendering the point moot once again, principally because at the time the FIA was spectacularly, glaringly out of touch with American land speed racers and Teague had no idea how to go about fixing the issue.

By 2008, when the Burkland family and friends bested Teague’s 1991 World Record the problem painfully reared up like a bad case of shingles when the FIA, having restored its integrity with American racers, denied the Burklands the kilometer portion of the record.

Tom, the ever-calculating engineer, together with mom Betty, and dad Gene, had worked out that clearly there was a mathematical problem with the kilometer record but none of the FIA officials directly involved with the process were still alive, throwing the correction process into a quandary.

It wasn’t until this year that remedial traction was regained. It all began at Teague’s kitchen table with wife Jane serving up some fine adult beverages after a nice swim out back.

Al was clearly troubled when he brought up the subject and asked if I might champion his request with the FIA: He would give back the kilometer record altogether as he did not feel it was right to deny another racer their due.

The idea had great merit. I approached Dennis Dean, President of the FIA Land Speed Record Commission with the request to re-examine the details of both records.

He agreed, and a couple months later I heard from LSR Commission member, and long-time USAC timer Dave Petrali, after he made a close examination of the paperwork regarding the Teague kilo speed situation. Most of it contained comparisons of the report speed and the speed shown on the “Timing Tape.”

He was unable, despite a protracted study, to determine how the difference occurred. And that point has never been determined.

However, Petrali told me, that the kilo speeds presented for the record and the speed printed on the timing tape left justifiable questions in many minds. Further, based on email and phone conversations with the involved parties, it became obvious that a solution was necessary.

“A great deal of credit must be given to Al Teague for his expressed opinion that he didn’t think he actually ran the 425 mph speed claimed by the record,” explained Petrali.

“That by itself provided the justification for correcting the speed using the two direction speeds shown on the tape.

Since the timing equipment displayed speeds rather than elapsed time for a given distance it was necessary to calculate the kilo ET’s from the two runs, average those times and calculate the speed for the kilo.

That procedure changed the 425.050 mph kilo record speed to 410.221 mph.”

To be clear, this did not invalidate Teague’s ‘Spirit of 76’ 409MPH World Record. He is still the shown as record holder from 1991 until Tom Burkland averaged plus 416MPH in 2008.

The FIA record listing shows both the 1991 Teague records and the current 2008 records held by Burkland.

In the end, Elwin “Al” Teague keeps the same mile speed record and gets a new kilo speed record. Tom Burkland keeps his mile speed record and is belatedly bestowed the kilo record. And the historical record will be correct when we are all dead 50 years.

Tom Burkland, as you might imagine, was quite pleased when Petrali called him with news of another World Record. OK, read that again. How many people will ever get a call like that?

“It’s a tribute to Al that he stepped up to fix the problem,” Burkland remarked to me by phone. “I hope we have the opportunity to race on our record if the Bonneville Salt Flats is restored to safe racing conditions.

Al is the king at Bonneville! Let no one ever think he might even consider cheating one of his competitors out of their efforts. One of the most enjoyable parts of the streamliner land speed racing environment during that period was the camaraderie between the teams, the willingness to share information developed that would help each other succeed (and in many cases prevent them from experiencing very dangerous consequences), and the absolute honesty, integrity, and character displayed by these teams. It is an honor for the Burkland team to have been involved with such gentlemen.”

Teague complied with the same rules that all record setters that came before him were subjected to, and never tried to inveigle special consideration, or gain an unfair advantage.

“The corrections made by the FIA to the world records has given me peace of mind than I am not cheating anyone out of their rightful record,” said Teague with a distinct relief in his voice. “It’s a struggle for all of us to get there. I’ve had no regrets. I’ve had my time and enjoyed all of it, me, and all my family and friends.”

In my opinion, if we had nobility in this nation, the guy would be at least a prince, if not an outright king as Mr. Burkland suggests.                    
                        
OFFICIAL corrected FIA World Record Statistics
Tremendous thanks to the FIA Land Speed Record Commission members.

Category A  |   Group I   |  Class  11

1-Kilometer Flying Start   |  Bonneville USA

410.221    Speed-O-Motive Streamliner
      Driver:     Elwin Teague   August 21, 1991

416.561    Burklands' 411 Tom, Gene & Betty Burkland Streamliner
      Driver:     Tom Burkland    September 26, 2008    


1-Mile Flying Start  |  Bonneville USA

409.978    Speed-O-Motive Streamliner
      Driver:     Elwin Teague   August 21, 1991

415.896    Burklands' 411 Tom, Gene & Betty Burkland
      Driver:     Tom Burkland    September 26, 2008.

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2016, 06:07:36 AM »
Having raised the question back at #11 in this thread it is difficult to know who to thank for making a correction after the passage of so many years.

Dennis Dean & Dave Petrali of the FIA Speed Records Commission have got the kilometre speed entry sorted on the FIA lists.

L.S. Louise Ann Noeth got the American's involved in correcting what appears to have been a USA 'claim' error. Many thanks to Pork Pie for raising the question with Al Teague and then allowing me to use his quote.

Finally we have two racers whom I have been fortunate to meet on the salt at Bonneville - Al Teague and Tom Burkland - who have both been correctly given their kilo (and mile) FIA record speeds and both proven to be gebuine, honest and fast speed record breakers.

[My final thought is that once the salt has been 'recovered' and good courses can be dragged, the target must be to raise the Category A - Group I - Class 11 records to 425 mph or even further!] 
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2016, 08:34:35 AM »
...

[My final thought is that once the salt has been 'recovered' and good courses can be dragged, the target must be to raise the Category A - Group I - Class 11 records to 425 mph or even further!] 

Mmmm.  The A-I-11 records may already be 439.xxx mph!  Bearing in mind that this is the 6-7 litre class.  :evil: :-o :evil:

Tom Burkland's records are now in Category A - Group I - Class 13 (over 8 litre).

This is going to be soooo confusing.  I hope the FIA update their list of current records before the Shootout.  :-)

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2016, 10:47:54 AM »
I had forgotten all about the 'new' class divisions Tricky. :-o  As you say, some of the FIA records will need re-allocating to the correct cubic capacities. 
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline trimmers

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2016, 07:01:12 PM »
Where can we find the info on these "new" divisions?  The speed record listings on the FIA website just show the old ones.
------------- 1 of just 3 in all 3  -------------
USFRA 130 MPH Club 09/18/2008 136.757
USFRA 150 MPH Club 09/17/2009 152.162
Bonneville 200 MPH Club 09/15/2019 218.600
Best Run: 253.080 MPH 09/14/2019 #6556

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2016, 09:29:50 AM »
Where can we find the info on these "new" divisions?  The speed record listings on the FIA website just show the old ones.

Here you go ...



Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2016, 09:44:14 AM »
Where can we find the info on these "new" divisions? 

Use the FIA website and then go to "Appendix D" - which is the section which contains the rules which govern International/World land speed records for all of their member countries, including the USA. :-o

http://www.fia.com/sports/fia-world-land-speed-records
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 09:57:24 AM by Malcolm UK »
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.