Author Topic: Mid- Engine Modified Sports  (Read 788320 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4146
  • What, me worry?
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #255 on: February 27, 2013, 05:06:06 PM »

As the window sign says at my local Northern Tool, "Scars are tatoos with better stories". 
[/quote]

I like that!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4146
  • What, me worry?
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #256 on: March 04, 2013, 08:27:27 PM »
I’ve been working on fitting some fiberglass body panels lately and I’m now working on the doors. One thing that I’ve found is that the quality of the Manta fiberglass is pretty variable—the upper doors & T-bar that I have are orange; they were made for another car and they don’t fit the black Mirage well at all. So it has been a grind & fit, trial & error assembly.

I had planned to fasten the upper gull-wing doors to the lower flip-forward doors and hinge them in one piece at the forward edge of the door opening like the Lola T70 but, after trying that idea, I have abandoned it as impractical. There is too much curvature to allow the door to open without interference. I’ve decided to hinge it at the top as Manta Cars originally designed it but I’ll have both the upper & lower doors tied together, opening in gull-wing fashion. A one-piece door saves time in getting it open for an emergency exit—like when I’m on fire. (I should have said IF I’m on fire). I think the bearclaw latch will still work OK but I need to check that.

I had a strip of MS2001-6 extruded aluminum hinge so I cut it to size and riveted it to the left door. Since this hinge is made of 2024-T351 it should be plenty strong. I turned the hinges upside-down so they do not protrude quite so far into the airstream. These are 3/16” Avex rivets; they have an unusually large grip range and they did not crack the ‘glass.

The orange t-bar is actually about 1” narrower than it needs to be to fit the black Mirage so I cut it lengthwise and will splice in the needed width later. Just FYI, here is what’s inside that T-bar. The double-wall construction adds a lot of stiffness without much added weight but the inside looks pretty ugly.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4146
  • What, me worry?
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #257 on: March 06, 2013, 07:02:20 PM »
As I mentioned in my last post, I discovered that the T-bar from the orange Mirage was 1” or so too narrow to fit my black Mirage  so it was necessary to cut it down the center and splice it with a piece of aluminum. I cut the plate from 0.040” 6061-T6 and riveted it to the fiberglass with thirty-four 1/8” Avex blind rivets. Holes were drilled in the four hinge wells for 5/16”-18 stainless cap screws. These thread into steel Rivnuts that I installed in the roll cage top titanium panel. After cleaning and smoothing the rough edges of the T-bar, I primed it and then spray-painted it with gloss black lacquer.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline robfrey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
    • carbinitelsr
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #258 on: March 07, 2013, 08:50:36 AM »
Looking great Neil!
496 BGS
carbinitelsr.com
carbiniteracing.com
carbinite.com

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6663
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #259 on: March 07, 2013, 09:36:59 AM »
Every time - every single time you post up a pic - I am struck by your attention to detail and the quality of the pieces you've gathered or fabricated.

 :cheers:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline tauruck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5127
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #260 on: March 07, 2013, 10:54:54 AM »
I second that. Excellent work Neil. Your attention to detail is not only in the finished parts but how they go together. Normal rivets and glass don't go.  :cheers:

Offline SteveM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1483
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #261 on: March 08, 2013, 08:36:21 AM »
Every time - every single time you post up a pic - I am struck by your attention to detail and the quality of the pieces you've gathered or fabricated.

 :cheers:

I third that sentiment.  I find your knowledge and use of the materials and fasteners particularly interesting.  Obviously, you have a strong aviation background.  It's great to see those skills and that knowledge put to use here.

Can you recommend any sources for the specialty rivets in particular?  Before seeing your work, I really never thought much past the hardware store pop rivets, but now I find myself craving the trick goodies.

Steve.
1/2 of the Rampage Brothers

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4146
  • What, me worry?
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #262 on: March 08, 2013, 12:37:12 PM »
Thanks, Steve. One of the best things I did years ago was to enroll in a local community college Aircraft & Powerplant mechanics course. I had no intention of getting an A & P license-- it was just to get the knowledge & experience that seemed to be useful in working on race cars. It has paid off many times over!

Rivets are an interesting subject since there are so many types and each has its advantages in certain applications. My rivet collection has been built up over the years by trolling surplus stores and eBay. You can never have too many but a variety of sizes, grip lengths, and materials is more helpful.

For fiberglass or moderate strength applications, I like the Avex 5052 aluminum body with a steel pin. These have an unusually wide grip range and still retain the pin which helps their shear strength. Many fastener distributors carry them and Aircraft Spruce is always a good source. They are available in both dome head and flush head. I find that 1/8" and 3/16" Avex rivets to be the most useful.

Stepping up in both price & performance are the aerospace variety-- CherryLock or the equivalent Huck or All Fast blind rivets. These also retain their pins but have better vibration resistance than Avex. They are available in more exotic alloys so their strength varies accordingly. Monel (a cupro-nickel alloy) has pretty good high temperature performance and strength, plus it doesn't rust. A really high strength rivet material is A286, a stainless superalloy. For low strength applications, aluminum/aluminum rivets are also available.

Aerospace rivets are great but buying them retail costs $$$$$$$$$$$$ so I usually find bags of 100 on eBay for around $10 to $15. The key to knowing what the rivets are is to decode their part number. This tells you the material, diameter, grip range, etc. Google the part number and you may find a brochure from Cherry that has the part number breakdown. Even if you get a really good deal on something like a 1/8" rivet with a grip range of 0.500" to 0.560", ask yourself where would ever use such a wierd size. Try to concentrate on usable sizes. One caution: aerospace rivets have a rather narrow range of acceptable hole sizes and grip ranges so the Avex is more of a "universal" blind rivet.

When buying surplus aerospace rivets, watch out for "oversize" rivets. These are designed with slightly larger diameter bodies so they can repair a structure that has had the old rivet drilled out and a slightly larger drill used to enlarge and clean up the hole. There is nothing wrong with using oversize rivets but once you use them, there is no slightly larger one if a repair is necessary. Of course the next larger size can be used.

Rivet sizes are expressed as thirty-seconds of an inch. A -4 rivet would be 4/32" or 1/8", a -5 is 5/32", and a -6 is 3/16" diameter. The grip range is the second number, also in thirty-seconds of an inch. For example, a -5-6 would be a 5/32" diameter rivet with a nominal grip range of 3/16".

A hand tool is OK for small rivets but for large ones, high-strength varieties, or for setting more than just a few, a pneumatic gun is almost a necessity. My favorite one is a small pneumatic/hydraulic gun but they are hard to find.

I don't use solid rivets but they are still around. Driving solid rivets requires some skill and quite a collection of pneumatic tools.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Freud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5419
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #263 on: March 08, 2013, 12:51:35 PM »
Neil I have been blessed with the work that Hume has done on Marlo's car. I have seen the variety

that you have discussed. The one other thing is the cutter that he uses when a special length is needed.

Thanks for your discussion of those simple but varied little "hole fillers."

The numbering system is like that used with hoses and their fittings.

FREUD
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 12:58:15 PM by Freud »
Since '63

Offline superleggera

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #264 on: March 08, 2013, 02:36:23 PM »
for your gullwing style door, have you thought of using an aircraft quick release "pit pin" for a hinge pivot?  Thus easy to remove the doors for service work. 
- me: Mark - home: Dry Heat, AZ USA - build: motorcycle streamliner

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4146
  • What, me worry?
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #265 on: March 08, 2013, 03:49:45 PM »
Mark;

Quick-release pins would work and would be a super strong hinge but I wanted to keep as little projecting into the airstream as possible. The MS2001 hinges can be separated by pulling out the pin-- not as easy as your idea, but lower drag.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline DND

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #266 on: March 08, 2013, 04:50:30 PM »
Years ago i bought a Micro-stop cutter for cutting the countersink holes for flat head rivets, by using this cutter tool each rivet will be flush with the surface if you set it up that way.

Or if you wan't them to stick up a tick you make the cut a little less deep, a real must if using flat head rivets.

A little pricey but worth its weight in gold when you need such a tool, like most special tools are.

If you are a metal fab guy you can never have enough of the trick tools

Don

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4146
  • What, me worry?
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #267 on: March 08, 2013, 05:40:48 PM »
"If you are a metal fab guy you can never have enough of the trick tools"

Amen, Don!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline tauruck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5127
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #268 on: March 08, 2013, 09:18:07 PM »
Neil, this might not be relevant but when using rivets on fibreglass you could use peel rivets. You probably know what they are but maybe some guys could use the info. Simply put, they are longer than you'd use for a particular situation but when compressed the shank splits into four "petals" that fold back ensuring the parts riveted stay together. No hijack intended. The only rivet gun I have is pneumatic and it was a gift from two friends. Their delivery guy dropped it off with a note saying I could have it but it needed repairing. The plastic container that fits on the back of the tool was full of fresh rivets but they couldn't get it to work. :-D :-D :-D

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4146
  • What, me worry?
Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #269 on: March 09, 2013, 01:18:28 PM »
Tauruck;

I've used those "petal" or "peel' rivets on thin plastic parts but they don't have much strength so I don't use them where I can also use an Avex rivet.

Good score on the rivet gun "that didn't work". Maybe he never put a few drops of oil in the air inlet; the piston can get stuck without any lubrication.

I'll post a few pictures of some of my most-used rivet guns. The old standby Marson hand tool is great but for stronger rivets of for setting a whole pattern, your hands will give out quickly. A pneumatic tool is need, such as the el cheapo eBay "Power Craft", it was about $25 or $30 but it works just fine on most rivets. The jewel is the FSI D100-MIL-1 set. It is a manual hydraulic gun that came in a set that included nosepieces for pulling Rivnuts & Nutserts, as well as blind rivets. It has lots of power for its small size. The other one is a FSI PT100. It is similar to the manual gun but it has a pneumatic/hydraulic actuator.

I haven't shown some oddballs or the ones for staked stem rivets such as the G36 manual gun.

The rivet cutter Freud spoke of is used for cutting solid aluminum rivets to the proper grip length. Solid rivets are far cheaper than blind rivets but they require access to the back side of the work where a helper bucks the rivet while you drive it from the front side. This procedure generates lots of noise... not very popular with wives.

This is enough pontificating--- I just wanted to give a brief overview of rivets since most racers are not familiar with the high performance potential of aerospace blind rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ