Author Topic: Laminar Flow Separation  (Read 24290 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2008, 05:07:28 PM »

The minimum drag shape (page 1)

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2008, 05:10:52 PM »
Page 2

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2008, 05:14:37 PM »
Page 3

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2008, 05:19:07 PM »
Page 4

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2008, 05:22:21 PM »
Page 5

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2008, 05:25:23 PM »
Page 6

Blue

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2008, 06:32:46 PM »
The article is an excellent example of why old references are limited.  Research from the early 60's showed that many minimum drag shapes were possible that achieved frontal area Cd's of less than half of what was quoted in this old book.  The research then shifted to volumetric drag coefficients, i.e. total drag vs. volume.  The work was funded by the Navy and started with towed mine detectors and later shifted to torpedoes. 

Given a fixed volume of engine, drive system, fuel, and warhead, practical torpedoes were tested at less than 1/4th the drag of the long shape we are all familiar with.  Speed and range surpassed the ability of the sonar to handle the flow noise, and the shapes required total redesign of the torpedo rooms and submarine architecture.  Therefore, these shapes were not adopted.

Since the 60's a great deal of R&D and testing has driven the minimum drag of some production air vehicles closer and closer to the theoretical minimum frontal area Cd of less than .02 vs. min drag Reynolds number.

While I have already been chastised for saying something mean about our over-zealous librarian, The difficulty I have with the last several posts is simply that they are nothing more than a huge volume of out-of-date reference material.  A HALF CENTURY of progress makes 100% of that article obsolete.  I appreciate that the poster is trying to be helpful, but he is not an aerodynamicist and the article creates nothing but misunderstanding of current knowledge and the perpetuation of 50-year old myths.

One might as well read about "the ether" that radio waves and light were supposed to propagate through.  We know better now, and accurate understanding takes no more than a high school physics understanding as long as the explanation is from our current knowledge base.

Offline tortoise

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2008, 07:07:13 PM »
Given a fixed volume of engine, drive system, fuel, and warhead, practical torpedoes were tested at less than 1/4th the drag of the long shape we are all familiar with.
Do you think the short and fat shapes, with higher frontal area but reduced skin surface area, could have practical application to LSR vehicles?

Blue

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2008, 07:13:38 PM »
Of course, yet they are highly compromised by wheel protrusions and stability issues.  Working these things out consumes a lot of my free design time.

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2008, 07:23:22 PM »
The article is an excellent example of why old references are limited.  Research from the early 60's showed that many minimum drag shapes were possible that achieved frontal area Cd's of less than half of what was quoted in this old book.  The research then shifted to volumetric drag coefficients, i.e. total drag vs. volume.  The work was funded by the Navy and started with towed mine detectors and later shifted to torpedoes. 

Given a fixed volume of engine, drive system, fuel, and warhead, practical torpedoes were tested at less than 1/4th the drag of the long shape we are all familiar with.  Speed and range surpassed the ability of the sonar to handle the flow noise, and the shapes required total redesign of the torpedo rooms and submarine architecture.  Therefore, these shapes were not adopted.

Since the 60's a great deal of R&D and testing has driven the minimum drag of some production air vehicles closer and closer to the theoretical minimum frontal area Cd of less than .02 vs. min drag Reynolds number.

While I have already been chastised for saying something mean about our over-zealous librarian, The difficulty I have with the last several posts is simply that they are nothing more than a huge volume of out-of-date reference material.  A HALF CENTURY of progress makes 100% of that article obsolete.  I appreciate that the poster is trying to be helpful, but he is not an aerodynamicist and the article creates nothing but misunderstanding of current knowledge and the perpetuation of 50-year old myths.

One might as well read about "the ether" that radio waves and light were supposed to propagate through.  We know better now, and accurate understanding takes no more than a high school physics understanding as long as the explanation is from our current knowledge base.

Air hasn't changed.

Minimizing three dimensional flow (and the inherent vortexes and turbulence) is still key to reducing lift and drag.

The major advances in automotive aerodynamics since the sixties have been in underbody airflow.

The first car to go 400 mph was designed and built in the mid thirties.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 07:40:56 PM by Ratliff »

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2008, 08:20:21 PM »
Given a fixed volume of engine, drive system, fuel, and warhead, practical torpedoes were tested at less than 1/4th the drag of the long shape we are all familiar with.
Do you think the short and fat shapes, with higher frontal area but reduced skin surface area, could have practical application to LSR vehicles?

The first car to go 300 mph on three liters was Fred Larsen's 99 inch wheelbase streamliner, using a body designed by Rockwell International aerodynamicist Lynn Yakel.

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2008, 08:25:29 PM »
Page 3

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2008, 08:30:15 PM »

Page 4

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2008, 08:33:16 PM »
Page 5

Ratliff

  • Guest
Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2008, 08:36:45 PM »

Page 6