Author Topic: gas or fool  (Read 15694 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 1212FBGS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
    • http://www.motobody.com
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 11:37:52 PM »
sum...i wouldnt be blending or dumpin nothin in your gas.....be safe and use a gas off of the list that falls below 15
kent

Offline interested bystander

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 997
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 11:58:49 PM »
Does anyone know what prompted this dramatic change in the DC? Maybe 15 isn't that far (in O2 content) over 2.5 -  not having a clue how the scale graduates. Or is it just to accomodate 10% CH3OH? And why, therefore?


 
5 mph in pit area (clothed)

Offline Sumner

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4078
  • Blanding, Ut..a small dot in the middle of nowhere
    • http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/sumnerindex.html
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2007, 01:02:17 AM »
sum...i wouldnt be blending or dumpin nothin in your gas.....be safe and use a gas off of the list that falls below 15
kent

I'm not smart enough to be dumpin nothin in my gas  :-(.  I was thinking about maybe taking the Amo approach to enhancing the gas in Hooley's Stude though :-o ,

Sum

dwarner

  • Guest
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2007, 08:44:17 AM »
If you read earlier in this thread I mentioned that the rule was expanded in order to reflect what is happening in the real world. We have purchased new meters that read differently than the testing methods used in the past. The numbers written in previous rulebooks have no connection to the new meter.

Dean has not provided a number that he thinks is better than the 15 in the rule. I am still holding the book back from the printer until you are done picking this rule apart. Both kent and IB have made intelligent comments.

DW

Offline Dean Los Angeles

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2370
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2007, 09:11:14 AM »
DW you must be wrong! You accused Kent of making an intelligent comment!

Quote
We have purchased new meters that read differently than the testing methods used in the past. The numbers written in previous rulebooks have no connection to the new meter.

That's a scary comment. The dielectric constant of a known liquid does not vary. Does that mean the testing done in the past was wrong?

The dielectric constant of methanol is 32.6. I raced karts in a class that had no limit on fuel, but the jets in the carburetor could not be changed. This allowed about 20% methanol to be run. The difference between 100 percent gas and 80/20 is a ton.

So if you are asking for a number, 2.3 was just fine. Would you please define what is happening in the real world? If Bonneville is the reference then DC doesn't matter. Have ERC provide one gas, and only one gas, and the playing field is even. The racers will all have different requirements, ignore them. They will get used to it.

Use that fuel as a reference for El Mirage. It may not be an event gas, but if it's available then let everybody know that anything other than that fuel might not pass.

That's kind of tough since the rule has already been changed. Since methanol has been allowed, the DC doesn't really matter. 15 is fine. Just be prepared for chemists.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

dwarner

  • Guest
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2007, 09:19:56 AM »
The 15 comes from the way the meter is graduated. May be the same as the former 2.3. Testing methods of the past were accurate with the equipment available. I am asking for a number on the new meter.

The rewritten rule is intended to reflect the new meter. Once again, if your gas is suspect it will be sent to a lab for testing, at your expense. This rule is the result of several discussions with Rick Gold. I would think he is qualified to "proof read" the rule.

I must the the fool in the title of this thread. How would you rewrite the rule to be accurate as to how we do business? Be part of the solution, not the problem.

DW

Offline Stainless1

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8973
  • Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2007, 10:05:19 AM »
thats a pretty nice list Dean....by the looks of it MULA would be legal.!....so i guess we dont have a problem anymore...
kent

Kent, sounds like almost anything might be legal at EM, and Bonneville will have the control of event gas.

Dean, You seem to be really up on this gas chemistry stuff, hope that wasn't one of the three you had in your plan for next year.... :?

Hope the rule change wasn't dreamed up by one of you rocket scientists....  :roll:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline Sumner

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4078
  • Blanding, Ut..a small dot in the middle of nowhere
    • http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/sumnerindex.html
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2007, 10:14:56 AM »
The 15 comes from the way the meter is graduated. May be the same as the former 2.3. ...............

.................. How would you rewrite the rule to be accurate as to how we do business? Be part of the solution, not the problem...DW

I would think that unless one really new what the "new meter" is and how it works no one would be very good at writing the new rule, especially if you say that 15 on the new meter "might be" the same as 2.3 on the old. I'm confused as to the wording of the old rule vs. the new rule where the old D.C. could be as high as 2.3 and the new says it can be as high as 15.  It would seem to me that 2.3 or 15 is just that regardless of the meter unless the old meter was not accurate and testing now shows that when the old meter was reading 2.3 it was way off and should have been reading 15.  Was that the case?

If you look at the list (  http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~hideseng/dc_list.htm ) I don't see any of ERC's listed fuels being over the old 2.3 except for the ones that are listed as RUL.  They are the un-leaded gasolines.  Is this what you are referring to as what is happening in the real world and not the ethanol blends?

.................... Once again, if your gas is suspect it will be sent to a lab for testing, at your expense..........................

How much does that cost?

Dan I appreciate that you are holding up on the final wording until you get some input.  I'm sure that is appreciated by more than a few.

c ya,

Sum

Offline joea

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1555
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2007, 06:34:00 PM »
Sum....most do not fully appreciate the full scope of enhancement
from "Amo Blend".....it not only has proven itself as a record enabling
anti-galling compound.....but has also been used successfully in ice-water
tanks to add density (via decreased melt)allowing for lower
mean water temp....additionally in fuel it has been shown to serve as
an anti-detonation device by introducing h20 to the combustion chamber..........
.....most have forgotten its atributes in open road wind tunnel tests......

Joe 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 06:39:16 PM by joea »

Offline 1212FBGS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
    • http://www.motobody.com
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2007, 01:14:21 PM »
Sum... what joe is saying is, he wants to pee in your gas tank, your water tank, and your crankcase....apairently those little Amo boys have a lot of pee in 'um.....
kent

Offline Dynoroom

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2192
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2007, 01:39:47 PM »
.....most have forgotten its atributes in open road wind tunnel tests......
Joe 

I'm thinking you don't want to be in the "draft" during this test...  :-o

Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline fastesthonda_jim

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 587
  • Ready to Rock 2003
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2007, 08:57:43 PM »
Hey, DW.

Is the "new" meter the one JD used at El Mirage all summer, or has another one been purchased since November?

And didn't the 10% methanol "allowance" have something to do with all the pump gas that has up to 10% methanol added?

Jim
2006 SCTA High Points Champeen
2006 Dirty "2" Wrench Of The Year
Bonneville "2" Club 2003
El Mirage Dirty "2"'s 2006
Bonneville Records: G/GS, F/GS (Boy)  G/FS (Girl)
El Mirage Records: F/BFS, F/FS, F/GS, I/FS, I/GS, K/BGS
FIA Records A, II, 8
Unlimited License
300mph line qualified (305.129 best mile speed)
The older half of San Diego's Fastest Couple
2016 Man of Distinction Award
DLRA 2019 Top Speed of The Meet (309.438 Mile - 323.3 GPS)

landracing

  • Guest
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2007, 01:57:34 AM »
Here is some original discussion about the tester, and how its tests, how its different then old tester... Some some info, isnt the answer to the original questions but will answer others. This was from back in July 07.

"Proposed SCTA / BNI Gas / Fuel Definition and Scrutineering Program

Background:   The SCTA Rule book for years has made a classical distinction between “Gas” Classes and “Fuel” Classes.  Traditionally, Gas meant gasoline that could be bought at the pump of the race car store or at the airport (AvGas), and Fuel meant Methanol and Nitro-Methane.  These liquids have varying energy yields that were so dramatically different that it was deemed that they should run in separate classes.  Over the years many companies began blending Gasolines that were higher in octane, had more additives (that were presumed to add power) and many components that deterred detonation (the prime killer of gasoline engines).  The SCTA developed a theory that gasolines could be insured by using a test method called “The Dielectric Constant Test”.

They established a top limit for a dielectric constant measure of 2.3 on a relative test meter (the Digitron) as compared to cyclohexane as the zero point on the comparator scale.  This method was used for some years until the Digitron meter went missing – then the testing stopped and we used a method of providing “Event Gas” and every one who wanted to compete in the “Gas” classes had to use gas form a specific source and their tanks had to be sealed to prevent tampering.

Recently we bought a new meter from Precision Fuel Testing Systems – the FT-K01 - and found that lots of “pump gasses” and some “race gasses” would measure more than the 2.3 on the DC Scale.  The two main reasons for this were that the FT-K01 has a different test dynamic method than the old Digitron, and of even more impact is that many of the modern gasses are blended with ethanol for both environmental and engine safety reasons.  The SCTA Board revised the rule for the limit of DC to be 6.0 and still call the liquid “Gas”.  We are now faced by yet another dilemma.  Race gas that has been in use at Speed Week for over 10 years and many off the shelf premium pump gasses measure over that 6.0 DC level. 

Gasoline is a blend of combustible fuel made basically from parafins and isoparafins with many different airomatics added.  All of these components are basic hydro carbons with varying molecular structures.  The varying molecular structures decompose and re unite with oxygen from the air intake of the engine in different sequences and in different conditions.  The result is that their reaction produces heat – pressure to move the piston.  The key is to produce the pressure in and orderly sequence – yet in time to be useful to the departing piston by transferring power.  A flame front that has lots of heat (pressure) that reached the piston part 50 deg ATDC is quite worthless to a racing engine.  Nowadays, blenders are adding oxyegenates such as ethers (ethanols, alcohols etc) and Oliphants (double bonded loose valance molecular structures) and other stuff to their blends for many reasons, most of which relate to more effective burn sequences therefore more efficient fuel use and potentially more power.  Pump gas manufacturers are also adding ethanols to improve burn completeness for environmental considerations albeit at some power cost.  That is why some pump gases will fail the current dc tests – yet are probably acceptable gasolines.

The general consensus is that without adding Methanol or Nitro Methane but allowing any of these other modern additives – the maximum power enhancement one could expect with a perfect tune for the revised / reblended gasoline is about 4 – 5%.  Generally this would require an engine built to the fuel spec (i.e. lower compression, slower or faster maximum revolution design, changed r/l ratios etc.) and that might in itself reduce the total power enhancement achievable.  But – back to the problem – gas blends are changing and we use gas – we don’t own the gas manufacturing industry – how do we co-exist and achieve our objective “Methanol and Nitro – Methane not be allowed in “Gas Classes”

What should we do???


Our intent is that Methanol and Nitro – Methane not be allowed in “Gas Classes”.  We do not care what mixture is being run in a “Fuel Class” entry.  Blends of Gasolines are being revised constantly to improve many aspects of hydrocarbon fuel use.  We can’t keep up with the testing methodologies nor the blending techniques, but we can insure that our original objectives are met. 

Our original objectives were that Methanol and Nitro – Methane not be allowed in “Gas Classes”. 

The addition of even 2 % Methanol to Gasoline will raise the DC meter to 20 or more.  I don’t know why one would do that because Methanol does not yield much more BTU that Gas (about 1.5%).  The addition of 1 % Nitro Methane will raise the DC constant to about 35 +.  Again, I don’t know why one would do that because Nitro-Methane and Gas don’t mix well and you would get some very rapidly varying fuel mixtures during a single run.  There are other additives and mixing components that also might impact the dielectric constant but do not constitute violation of our original intent.  Again Our (SCTA / BNI) original intent was to prohibit Methanol and Nitro-Methane in Gasoline.   Hence the establishment of a some DC ceiling of 20 or so would detect the possibility of gasoline tampering but not necessarily prove. "

Jon



dwarner

  • Guest
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2007, 08:32:23 AM »
Yeah, what I said - Thanks for the research Jon.

FH Jim - yes and yes. Did you get my email about the trophy?

DW

dwarner

  • Guest
Re: gas or fool
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2007, 09:16:00 AM »
Please comments from Rick Gold concerning the rewritten gasoline rule, I have highlighted Rick's comments in orange

Some comments on our basic intent with the rules modification are in order.  We have a number of fuels that are really gasoline by our definition, that come from the local pump – but will not pass the old DC test of 2.3 (including most non-California regular gasolines).  IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE "old DC test of 2.3"  WAS ABSOLUTELY NOT BASED ON THE METHODOLOGY WHEREBY AN ADJUSTABLE DC METER WAS ZEROED ON CYCLOHEXANE AND THEN A FUEL SAMPLE TESTED OR COMPARED TO THAT ZERO WITH THE NUMBER 2.3 READING OUT ON THE METER.  THAT OLD 2.3 NUMBER IS BASED ON A METHODOLOGY THAT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.  WE'RE TALKING "APPLES AND ORANGES" ON THIS.  IT IS ALSO KEY TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE ACCEPTED FEDERAL STANDARD FOR GASOLINE IN THE U.S., ASTM D4814, AND THE ONE THAT PRECEDED IT, ASTM D439, CALLS OUT NO DIELECTRIC STANDARD AT ALL.  DIELECTRIC VALUE OR CONSTANT IS NOT CONSIDERED A PROPERTY WHICH DEFINES GASOLINE OR CAN BE USED TO GAUGE GASOLINE QUALITY.  AS I TOLD JIM LATTIN EARLIER THIS YEAR WHEN ASKED: "I THINK IT WOULD BE A MISTAKE FOR SCTA TO GO DOWN THIS ROAD.  THE REASON ??  THEIR IS NO BACKUP IN THE STANDARDS OR LITERATURE FROM EITHER THE ASTM (AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS) OR THE API (AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE) WHICH SUPPORTS THIS KIND OF TESTING FOR THE PURPOSES OF DEFINING OR QUALIFYING A MOTOR FUEL AS GASOLINE." 

Dean?

DW