Author Topic: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules  (Read 26571 times)

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Offline DahMurf

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2007, 05:24:23 PM »
So then is the SCTA able to enforce a ruled based on the intent even if it's not clearly stated in the written rule?

We seem to be having a lot of discussions in the ECTA arena on this point. If the "Sr" tech's know & understand the intent, if it's not clearly & specifically writen in the rules, it is argued (by the entrants & even amongst the techs) and often times overruled (despite intent). Which then puts the ECTA in the same place as the SCTA currently is, with something that was once legal suddently being not legal and vice versa.

Any way you slice it, this is not a good situation for the entrants.

Deb
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2007, 09:16:26 PM »
Thanks for the pics Stainless. So they let you run with the "offending" piece intact as long as you were in an unfaired(naked) class?  If so... I understand the level of aggravation even more then before and agree with Dean that a written protest to the decision should be turned in as soon as possible. I believe anything rear of the rider has always been subject to the same rules whether faired(PS) or unfaired(naked).
Todd

I didn't re-enter in naked, I was just planning to make a pass and based on Robs run the day before, I opted to put the part back on.  I was still technically running partially streamlined, just without the fairing.  It didn't matter since I was just planning to go 150 to 175, and not running for a record.  The weather changed the plan when we were 2nd in line.

All, if anyone has a solution to the SCTA changing the rules without notice at a meet or any way racers can control that type of behavior I am sure we are all willing to know that information.  (Jack, no cryptic platitudes please)
We just want to race in a level playing field (no pun intended, this is serious), Either all those records, including ours and the previous owner (Jason used a now illegal Toy fairing), need to be removed from the books or the SCTA needs to return to sensibility and publicly apologize for the inconvenience and expense they caused a lot of racers at the 07 World Finals!!!
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline JackD

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2007, 10:24:26 PM »
An e-mail from all those concerned to the decision makers and additional interested parties would be the most effective.
If you don't get an appropriate response, don't give up.
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Offline Stainless Two

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2007, 11:11:00 PM »
It seems to me a bit arbitrary.  To suddenly make many honest and supportive racers into cheaters is an unqualified, and undeserved title.  To arbitrarily decide that absent any performance gain, that I am suddenly a "cheater" is singularly insulting, and i feel that anyone else required to cut their fairings at this event deserve at least an apology.



« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 07:01:52 PM by Stainless Two »
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Offline sockjohn

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2007, 11:25:43 PM »
I hate to say it, but I can see how the intent of the rule  is perfectly valid.  I've seen at least one example of a pretty conventional bike that could have caused difficulty in the rider separating from the bike.  I don't know whose it was, nor do I have a picture. Would it ever be an issue?  Maybe not.  I'm sure we're all creative enough to see how that could cause an issue

What in the rules otherwise prevents some one from building a streamliner without a roll cage, and carefully cutting out a silhouette of the rider to meet the "It must be possible to see the rider completely from either side..." rule.

This would be a pretty unsafe thing to do IMHO, but show me the rule that says I can't otherwise. (And yes, I realize there would have to be cutouts for the wheels to be legal, it's the part around and above the rider I'm talking about)

Sounds like the implementation of the rule is the issue!


Offline JackD

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2007, 12:52:44 AM »
Common sense is not universally applied to a lot of snap decisions.
A big part of the problem is the sole ruler can be so easily influenced to act beyond common sense when they fail to understand the intent in the first place.
A reprint of this thread would be a good place to start and copies should be distributed to as many others as can be reached and they should be asked for their comment, either way. :x
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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2007, 01:07:04 AM »

The modified production rules 7.F.11 Open Class #1. states that "streamlining is . . . forward of the rider." In the picture above is that the red line in front of the knuckles or the red line forward of any part of the rider?
7.F.11 Open Class #2. states that "Seat or tail section must conform to partial streamlining rules." Then streamlining is or isn't forward of the rider?
Front fender rules state that the fender forward of the front axle has to be above the rim and not forward of the rim. Then it goes on to say: "Forward front fender coverage may not extend lower than a horizontal line through the front axle." Since the previous sentence clearly states that forward of the axle has to be above the rim, then forward of what? Does that mean behind the axle as I drew the red line above?

Other than a seat or tail section there can be no streamlining past the rear axle. What is there other than a seat or tail section? Why don't they say what they really mean and just say no streamlining past the rear axle below the rim and nothing past the rear tire. Oh, did I forget the 180 rule? That's because the above description makes that automatic. Forget the mumbo-jumbo about seat or tail section.

Better yet, how about a diagram like the above?

Forward of the rider is an important distinction that allows tail streamlining in the open class.

What we need is a definitive description that cannot be interpreted differently by two people reading the rule.
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Offline JackD

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2007, 01:45:25 AM »
The rule needs to revert back to the wording that worked.
Back up to the first year SCTA began the bike program and chart the changes.
Some time ago, the present rulers decided the stock  dust cover in a Vincent ignition was streamlining forward of he rider and was required to remove it.
As I recall it was down low in the front of the motor and offered some protection from most things that you pick up when underway.
Swell huh ?
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2007, 12:19:21 PM »
The real issue here is the New interpretation of the old rule.  Bikes that set records at speedweek were told to comply or not be certified for a record set at World Finals.  Some learned it in inspection, some when they arrived at impound for records.
This is not fair for any competitor, past or present.  This rule was changed mid-meet

If a rule change changes the class, should all the present records be archived, or moved to the class they now fit? (Example: the 10% wheelbase rule for modified would move a lot of records to A)

Arbitrary interpretation of rules slights every racer, yes even the car guys.
 
John N brought up an interesting point way back in this thread.... http://www.landracing.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=154&pos=14  is the picture of a bike that would have been illegal.  The tail section obscured the above view of the inner foot and leg.  Wonder what he was told???

EM racers, please post your experiences after the Oct meet to let us know how you fared...

This is a serious problem that should not be taken lightly by any landspeed racer, roadster guys, what it the inspectors decided that  the back of the transmission cutout area in the firewall was the firewall that the entire driver must be between it and the rear axle certerline??? 
Stainless
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Offline panic

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2007, 01:32:24 PM »
Apologies in advance - long post.

"What we need is a definitive description that cannot be interpreted differently by two people reading the rule."

This is the distilled essence of a rule: to prevent (or at least limit) subjective, arbitrary, and inconsistent enforcement of class requirements.
If the literal wording lacks sufficient clarity to preclude this, but the purpose be known and agreed upon, the specific language for the rule should be delegated to a person familiar with just this sort of task (regardless of whether they were qualified to parse the content).

I spent some decades in civil service where I assumed just such a function due to the repeated failure of the original authors to make their decisions clear enough that no excuse could be made for failure to comply, and that the same parameters would always result in the same decision, regardless of the identity of the official. It's not that difficult, it just requires a practiced eye for loop-hole detection, elasticity of description, vagueness and self-contradiction of terms, etc. You don't have to have a better grasp of the physics to improve the language - it's a different skill. Many posts here in this thread have already improved the quality of the existing rule.

If the powers that be wished to effect a remedy without the need for formal simultaneous meetings, they might begin by requesting objections to specific rules with those rules receiving the highest number of responses (and closest deadlines) going to the head of the list.
Then any member could submit a proposed wording in parallel with the original and notes indicating why this was needed.
Every objector is CC'd with every proposed change, and the top 3 (by endorsement: "I like this one") go back to rules for review.
Less work for the rule people, more input from the aggrieved, everyone interested can be on the same page.

Diagrams and photos of bikes that passed and that failed should be posted here, with lines super-imposed to reduce the volume of potential questions.

Offline JackD

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2007, 02:54:57 PM »
Most of that format was included in the MC meeting that is no longer conducted.
In this age of instant electronic communications it can be even better.
A most recient example is the Prostar survey of competitors that sought their input for rules pertaining to a new class.

"Airing in public doesn't allow much room for mistakes and none for lies." (me)


fixed spellos and typos
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« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 03:52:49 PM by JackD »
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Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2007, 03:34:28 PM »
well lets stop bitchin and help the motorcycle chair out....... lets come up with wording that everybody would be happy with....... and i will present it at elmo.... any ideas..?... Jack, what was the old wording..?... my rulebooks back to 99 says the same as now....i am eager and willing to help them solve this problem.
kent

Offline JackD

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2007, 04:05:11 PM »
EM is only a start but I can sit with you before hand and go through it just like was done before the problems prevailed.
Out doors in the dirt is not much better than when the Bonneville meeting was moved to the salt during race time.
It severly limits participation, and it seems that was the objective.
Say the when , the where , and the who, and I will be available.
The SCTA politics are about to change again and it is as important as ever if the MC community is to survive it.
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"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline DahMurf

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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2007, 05:41:04 PM »
Why not just discuss it here so we can all play?  :-D

Deb
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Re: WF "NEW " Partial Streamlined Rules
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2007, 06:16:46 PM »
Whatever you guys choose to do, just remember that rule changes are supposed to be submitted in writing no later than October 15, which is next Monday. (I have attached the rule change form in word format)

Also, you should bring this up at the next board/reps meeting (October 26th). Contact a board member to get it added to the agenda. Three of the twelve current SCTA Board members are M/C guys (Bob Moreland, Tom Evans and Russ O'Daly) so you should be able to find some support there.