"The Salt Snake" Sets Streamliner Record

[JackD]

The rules are clear as to the requirements for engine origin and what class they belong in.
Out of respect for each other, both sides should read and understand the rules.
Perpetuating an error only serves to reduce the validity of the effort.
It has been the case where an entrant listed the wrong class number and the subsequent review caused the record to be denied.
The Vulchers on the fence loved it.
It looks like the classification mistake was just that and reasonableness would be to put in the correct class.
Their was not intent to cheat on either part, but if it is allowed to remain, it cheats everybody.
The ruling for AMA that was refrenced was changed at the request of the promoter, and FIM never had such a restriction.
Memories are long.
How would you like to be remembered ?
 

[tortoise]

Actually, the engine probably is a Banshee 4-wheel ATV engine . . .Anyway, car engines are "legal" in streamliners.
(See rule 7.J.12 on page 117 of the 2007 rule book......)

See 7.H.18 on page 113 of the 2007 rulebook. "Any single or dual combination of motorcycle engines is permitted."

 . . .then is the V-4 engine that Manning has legal for SCTA ( I know the body is not )

Manning's engine was built for a motorcycle and was never used in anything else. Why would you say it's not a motorcycle engine?

What's wrong with the body?

[mtkawboy]

It was not my intention to urinate on Salt Snakes parade, or cause them problems, I was merely curious as to which engine it was.

[interested bystander]

Somehow a reply to all this slipped thru the cracks.
What I maintained is that Breedlove and Fueling set records on THREE wheels  I believe,as motorcycles

A motorcycle seems to be a two or (as those points cherry pickers know) a three wheeled device.
Regardless of powerplant.Vesco should have land racing sainthood but nothing kept him from building a Salt Snake at his time. Except imagination.

People will continue to come along and push the envelope- and as I said in a prvious post COSTELLA AIN'T DONE YET!

[JackD]

The definition of a automobile and a motorcycle predates AMA and SCTA .
Proper classification would be the proper thing to do.
Classify it the way it really is and vow not to repeat the mistake.
If I built an engine from raw material , i would be embarrassed to call it a motorcycle engine outside the Unlimited class in SCTA that was opened for them with the excuse that it was only used in a bike.
Feuling and Breedlove only ran the rules as printed, long before their attempts and did not cause them to be redefined for their purpose.

[interested bystander]

I was about to take my nap when I peeked at the Landracing website and saw Jackie's reply

If we're down to definitions I'l refer you back to the Viet Cong's argument over the SHAPE of the TABLE that alleged peace discussions were to take place in the day. Ludicrous!

In m y mind a motorcycle has two (or three-cherry pickers notice) and an automobole has at least four-

Maybe we all need to sit down at a table (if we can decide on its shape) and discuss how we should classify such vehicles for posterity.

[RZ350]

The RZ350 engine has power valves on the exhaust ports, and the Banshee engine does not.

The RZ350 cylinder head has a thermostat housing, Banshee head does not.

The transmission gear ratios are different between the two applications...

Almost all of the other parts are identical, which is good for me, as I have a few Banshee parts in my RZ350.

Anyone need a spare RZ350 engine?

[Nortonist 592]

Many years ago (early 60s I think and I'm sure Jack D has the exact answer) Sormy Manghan ran a chevy powered two wheeler on the salt.  This is my memoryfrom  HRM article and an article in an englih bike mag.  The speed of 310 sticks in my mind but the thing that stuck out most was the SCTA telling he couldn't run because he wasn't using a motorcycle engine.  I also remember that the F.I.M. classified Breedlove's Spirit as a bike and sidecar simply because it had three wheels.  A quad is definitely not a motorcycle.  By the same token its not a car.  It is something that requires definition by the SCTA.  But with four wheels it is not a motorcycle.

[JackD]

Breedlove was correctly classified by FIM as a thrust powered 3 wheeled cycle and never a side car.
4 or more wheels in contact with the ground is defined correctly as an automobile and not a car or a truck , or a bus.
A bit of more detail on the UG/UF.
Lattin represented an entrant that made a V-twin from a segment of a V8 at the now gone MC tech interest meeting that I chaired at Bonneville.
Mad Max, that some of you know built one like it for a Dragbike some years prior.
My input was to put the wishes of the assembled group into words that could be almost universally understood, and printed for all to read after suitable approval by the SCTA Board.
The only person to speak against it after it was agreed it was to be applied to streamliner only was Mark Lingua , who felt that it would open the flood gates to F-1 motors for example and ruin it.
He was not aware that FIM already allowed it but nobody did it anyway.
It was written as approved by a show of hands and subsequent approval by SCTA.
Not long after, it crashed and the builder made it into an automobile.
Nothing has happened since.
Their is no reason to only allow them in the largest sizes and smaller engines like snowmobile and Jet Ski should be allowed across the board in streamliner.
If the entrants vote to do something else, they should be heard and allowed to do it within the bounds of safety.
Rulers and rules should be a careful evolution so as to not obsolete those that have gone before but really beat them because you went faster
You should be extremely careful going forward because it will always be worse if you have to back up from an error, as we have seen again reciently. 

[Oldguy]

I think we should step back a little and look at this again.  If we are discussing a World record, as defined by the FIM, why is the SCTA rulebook being quoted?  These are two different organizations with two different rulebooks and depending on the meet, you have to use the proper rulebook.  It's the same with the question "Why isn't the BUB event run like the SCTA" - because it's an AMA/FIM event and their rules dictate how things are done.  I don't know what the FIM rules are for the 350 class that Cliff and crew are running in, but I sure hope they know them and have set an official FIM record.

Glenn

[tortoise]

I don't know what the FIM rules are for the 350 class that Cliff and crew are running in, but I sure hope they know them and have set an official FIM record.

Glenn

Vain hope, friend. The record claimed is an SCTA record, set at World Finals.

[tortoise]

If I built an engine from raw material , i would be embarrassed to call it a motorcycle engine outside the Unlimited class in SCTA that was opened for them with the excuse that it was only used in a bike.

Should those MotoGP guys who build engines from raw material be embarassed to call them motorcycle engines?

Their is no reason to only allow them in the largest sizes and smaller engines like snowmobile and Jet Ski should be allowed across the board in streamliner.

Agreed. What the rules are and what the rules should be are two separate questions.

[JackD]

Does it say that UG or UF is limited to one engine size ?
Is it the case where nobody has given it enough thought as to what it really says ?
Read it carefully, understand that it only says what it says, and don't read into it anything that is not there.
Just because nobody ever did it doesn't ever mean it can't be done.
If it reads other than what can be clearly understood, or doesn't match the intent, then strive to get it fixed, but only with the prior understanding and approval of the participants.
Fail that and you will find yourself at the mercy of the trouble you are responsible for.

[tortoise]

In rule 7.D.4, also on page 103, in the space for "permitted" engines,
streamliner claaes show "All" engines are permitted EXCEPT UG and UF.

What does that mean?

Actually, engine classes for streamliner reads "All". As I read that line, it means that all engine classes except UF and UG are limited to 2 engines.

[JackD]

Read it again a lot slower this time or have Ellen slowly read it to you.
Then read it again in prior years editions.

"BINGO" is a good example because elders that some believe are worthless can effectively manage 20 cards that would just cross the eyes of a rookie. LOL