Author Topic: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested  (Read 7036 times)

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Offline wheels777

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Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« on: September 10, 2007, 02:01:28 PM »
Long story short, I have been looking for a 53-54 Studebaker for 24 years, and as of 10 days ago I have one.  I have drag raced for 27 years and have always wanted to go land speed racing.  During the upcoming winter I hope to tear down and assemble the Studebaker. 

1. Is there a good logical swap for the front spindles and/or from suspension?

2. I saw a program on SPEED channel and it showed how rough Maxton is.  What should the spring rates be to race there and at Texas and Bonnesville?

3. Is there anyone in the York, PA area that I can/should talk to?
#9270 - 1954 Studebaker

Offline Sumner

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2007, 03:14:02 PM »
Long story short, I have been looking for a 53-54 Studebaker for 24 years, and as of 10 days ago I have one.  I have drag raced for 27 years and have always wanted to go land speed racing.  During the upcoming winter I hope to tear down and assemble the Studebaker. 

1. Is there a good logical swap for the front spindles and/or from suspension?

2. I saw a program on SPEED channel and it showed how rough Maxton is.  What should the spring rates be to race there and at Texas and Bonneville?

3. Is there anyone in the York, PA area that I can/should talk to?

Congrats on your new car.  You might want to spend some time on what we have done with Hooley's Stude and you can find construction pictures and what we have done different years on the salt.  You can find that info here:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/hooley/hooley-index.html

Personally if you just run Maxton I think how you develop HP and how you approach handling can be quite different than B'ville.  Think about it as being a longer drag strip than you are familiar with.  The motor will have to be built to stay together longer and CP and CG (  http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville%20-%20LSR%20Thoughts-4.html   ) are probably not so important with the higher traction and shorter time at top speed.

On the salt high speed stability for long periods of time on a surface with only about .5 traction as Maxton becomes much more important.  Also cooling and oil control become much more critical.

If I was going to do both I would set the car up with the salt in mind knowing I might be leaving something on the table at Maxton.

good luck, have fun, and welcome to landracing.com,

Sum

Offline wheels777

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 10:47:08 AM »
Awesome pics, awesome car.

My effort will be far more stock like.  Do you know anyone who has modified the original front suspension, or is a swap the only way?  What caster angle is recommended?  It will be street and race.
#9270 - 1954 Studebaker

Offline Sumner

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 11:31:00 AM »
Awesome pics, awesome car.

My effort will be far more stock like.  Do you know anyone who has modified the original front suspension, or is a swap the only way?  What caster angle is recommended?  It will be street and race.

The other Stude I'm familiar with is Gary Hart's (GH on here) and he replace the front with a straight axle and the car has been handling good.  You might want to PM him or see if he replies (Gary??).

There are others on here that run Stude's, so hopefully they chip in also,

Sum

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 12:08:59 PM »
Quote
What caster angle is recommended

I was told a minimum of 10 degrees positive is good.
I will be running 15 pos. (from 0) next year.
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 01:46:08 PM »
Cannot reply about the knowledge of today but in the past a straight axle was the way to go. Mark Johnson put one under his Camaro to straighten it out running over 230. The car is now running in the 190 range and is straight as an arrow.

If you don't want to hang a big spoiler on the back, air ducts always worked well and were a requirement on one over 185 in the past. Good Luck
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline Sumner

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 02:24:29 PM »
Cannot reply about the knowledge of today but in the past a straight axle was the way to go. Mark Johnson put one under his Camaro to straighten it out running over 230. The car is now running in the 190 range and is straight as an arrow.

If you don't want to hang a big spoiler on the back, air ducts always worked well and were a requirement on one over 185 in the past. Good Luck

I've driven with Gary in his Stude on country roads around his house and while the car is a little rough I could live with it for a car that saw both street and strip duty, so the striaght axle might be a good thing.

Sum

Offline wheels777

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 07:18:33 AM »
I am thinking of a late model front end swap or installing late model brakes and ball joints onto the original a-arms.  Another thought was to install a late model strut and use the lower.  Has anyone here made a swap of this kind onto a Stude? 
#9270 - 1954 Studebaker

Offline Unkl Ian

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 11:07:03 AM »
A tape measure should tell you if a Camaro or Nova front clip could be used.

The guy from Vintage Air did a Stude for Bonneville a few years ago.
I wonder what they used for front suspension ?
I guess the answer is "a Secret" .

Offline hotrod

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2007, 09:55:15 AM »
Quote
Do you know anyone who has modified the original front suspension, or is a swap the only way?

Quote
I am thinking of a late model front end swap or installing late model brakes and ball joints onto the original a-arms.  Another thought was to install a late model strut and use the lower.  Has anyone here made a swap of this kind onto a Stude?

Not exactly what you have in mind but food for thought --- I did the following front suspension conversion on a 1954 Studebaker Champion and ran a Chrysler Hemi in it on the street for several years. It worked flawlessly and was a pleasure to drive.

In 1965, I cut off the front frame on a 1958 Dodge just behind the cross member where the rear of the torsion bars mounted. It was a box tube frame about 3 x 4 in box as I recall. There is a place on the stock Studebaker frame where  it kicks out under the drivers seat and then narrows back in, that if you cut the frame there, you can telescope a short section of the Studebaker rear frame inside the Dodge torsion bar front frame. Then weld up and gusset as necessary. (the big challenge is the stock Stude frame is very light weight metal, if in your shoes I would pitch it and replace with a proper scratch built square tube frame of reasonable section for racing.)

The torsion bars gave me full control over front ride height. Spring rates were acceptable for a heavy big block. The Chryser Hemi was a bolt in on the frame motor mounts as they were designed for that same engine transmission (torqueflight) configuration.

The car with that suspension was the most stable car I have ever driven in cross winds. During wind storms (Colorado Chinook wind storm with 90-100 mph gusts) I could drive one handed at 70-80 mph directly into the wind (air speed 160-180) while other cars were changing lanes due to the wind gusts.

Look around and see what is available in the Chrysler torsion bar front frames in your junk yards, you might find a near bolt in replacment. I did the original planning for the swap using plastic car models, as they accurately model the frame structure and you can quickly measure things up at home. On a 1:25 model you can use a mm ruler to measure inches directly over short distances (25.4 mm = 1 inch).

For the rear suspension I used Chrysler Imperial leaf springs and the built in tension traction bars they used on the old Imperial rear suspension. The front and rear spring mounts were trivial to fabricate, and located very nicely with the stock Studebaker rear spring front eye, for the rear eye I fabricated some of the inverted Ford style spring  shackles. For steering I used the stock 58 Dodge power steering box as a manual box. It put the steering wheel in the stock location in the body as well.

There is a lot more modern hardware out there now, but that worked for me. I know they used the same basic torsion bar front suspension at least into the 1970's but on a unibody configuration. The sub frame for one of those might also work with proper fabrication.

Larry
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 07:15:00 PM by hotrod »

Offline GH

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2007, 11:14:14 AM »
Wheels777, I purchased a hot rod dropped axle from Speedway Motors in Lincoln Nebraska, lengthened it out by 2-3/4", used a Vega cross steer system with a panhard bar. The car goes absolutly straight as an arrow (as the saying goes) up to 234 mph so far.

Offline wheels777

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2007, 12:25:17 PM »
Wheels777, I purchased a hot rod dropped axle from Speedway Motors in Lincoln Nebraska, lengthened it out by 2-3/4", used a Vega cross steer system with a panhard bar. The car goes absolutly straight as an arrow (as the saying goes) up to 234 mph so far.

What caster angle?  Do folks use straight axles at Maxton and on street for dual purpose vehicles?
#9270 - 1954 Studebaker

Offline GH

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2007, 01:14:49 PM »
I built 10 degrees caster in my axle, used parallel leaf springs (redneck trailer springs)..

Offline RidgeRunner

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2007, 10:14:37 PM »
     Buddy has a '32 street roadster he has run at Bonneville once, Maxton, 1/8 & 1/4 mile drags regularly, and uses for cruise and coffee runs on the street every chance he gets in between.  Traditional Ford dropped I-beam front with transverse spring, started with about 5-7 degrees caster.  When he had worked up to high 130's at Maxton, in his words, he "had to really start driving it on the top end" and "pay attention".  Increased the caster to 12 degress which "made all the difference in the world" in the handling.  With motor changes has since worked up to 150 and change.  Thought to go really faster he would have to start making major change$ to the car as well as take the street out of it creating major time hassels everytime he wanted to take it from one use to another.  Has built a rear engine modified roadster for race only, barring total disaster should have it at Maxton for shake down runs 20th and 21st.

     If you haven't been yet and can make it I would advise going down for the Oct meet to check things out.  Ask around, everybody is friendly.  If a picture is worth a thousand words, one visit is worth volumes.
Were even a couple of Stude coupes running last time I was down in April.  If you make it down look us up, always plenty of free opinion from us.

                          Ed Purinton


Offline 836dstr

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Re: Getting Started with first LSR Car - help requested
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2007, 01:05:36 PM »
One good thing about running a tube or "I" beam axle with a four bar is that it could be easily changed from a race back to a street set-up. 12 to 15 degrees for the race set-up would be good. Much more and you would need steering stops.

Good luck! I always liked Studes!