Author Topic: handling problem......  (Read 19236 times)

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Offline Unkl Ian

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2007, 04:49:34 PM »
Looking from the front,or back,draw a line through the ball joints to ground level.
This is the axis the steering pivots around.

At ground level,measure the distance from this line to the center of the tire contact patch.

That distance,is the scrub radius.With Zero Scrub Radius,
the line would intersect the center of the contact patch.

Changing wheel offset will change the scrub radius.
I guess the answer is "a Secret" .

Offline JackD

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2007, 05:49:26 PM »
So if you have a king pin the result is different ?
Best to say pivot point for a better explaination of the concept. :wink:
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Offline jl222

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2007, 06:53:10 PM »
Carroll Smiths books are great. Interested Bystanders list should give you several things to check sounds like bump steer or chassis deflection, toe in or out,rear tire stagger "do you have a locked rear end'? Smith also mentions front anti roll bar miles to stiff and your running locked and strapped. I would give the front some travel to stay in compliance with the track. We run about 1 inch bump and let it droop all the way. we also have 22 degrees caster. The car runs straight and is not a scary ride at 288 mph +. Also #1 check the over all alignment Smiths books are great on it and lots of other things   GOOD LUCK JL222                                     
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 07:04:19 PM by jl222 »

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2007, 07:19:10 PM »
Thanks for the help.

In my quest to find a definitive answer to why I have the handling problem and the fact that there are no adjustable points on the Rx7 rear end I am using I found a site that offers adjustable bars and rods that are not adjustable stock.

From this site I also found "Rear Steering Eliminators". It seems that the Rx7 (86-92, mine is a 86 rear) has a system to change the toe of the rear wheels according to the compression of the suspension in corners.

Here is what they say about it:

"Rear Steer" was added to the RX-7 beginning with the 86 model. The rear geometry reacts to cornering "G" forces by changing the toe alignment on each wheel depending on the speed, loads, and body roll. The sensation the driver feels is the front wanting to steer into the corner, but is actually the rear steering to the outside of the corner. This all happens right when a sensitive driver is expecting the rear end to begin a slight slide which the driver would compensate for by some degree of opposite-lock steering input.''

I have a sneaking feeling that this may be a large part of the problem.
More research needed....taking the car to a suspension shop
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 07:30:37 PM by Jonny Hotnuts »
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
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Offline Chicane

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2007, 07:37:04 PM »

So if you have a king pin the result is different ?

No. Not unless one thrives on semantics.  :wink:

The correct terminology should be used in all accounts, for any explaintion. Its the generic or grassroot terms that tend to confuse the masses. "Scrub radius" is a function of the steering axis and the wheel position and is defined by the SAE as "kingpin offset", which is the distance between the two points created by the inter- section of the wheel centerline (centerline of tire contact patch) and the steering axis with the ground plane. The steering axis is determined by the "kingpin index angle", which is the plane projected through the upper and lower ball joints and the wheel shaft joint. A zero scrub radius exists when the wheel centerline and the "kingpin index" intersect exactly at ground level. Positive offset occurs when the wheel centerline is located laterally inboard from the steering axis at the ground plane, while negative offset occurs when the steering plane intersects the wheel centerline above the ground plane.

The two major factors that affect the scrub radius are wheel height and wheel offset. Taller wheels than stock will push the scrub radius farther out from the center line which is acceptable to a point. Shorter wheels will pull the scrub radius in towards the frame. This is not desirable in most moderate speed applications as it makes the steering heavier.

Choosing a negative or positive scrub radius for a vehicle's suspension has emerged as a great philosophical debate in the last couple of years. For instanance, in a strut suspension, achieving a negative scrub radius is at least a viable option. However, on IFS suspensions (eg light trucks with 4WD and short long-arm SLA suspensions) packaging the wheel end components and achieving a negative scrub radius has been difficult or impossible. Demand for off highway capability, working payload capacity, and the required brake component size needed, makes achieving even a small positive scrub radius difficult or requires compromising brakes, steering linkages, or other suspension components. In the case of this thread... its not so much of an issue.

Opinions about whether negative scrub is what the average driver wants are mixed. However, there is a trend to provide improved vehicle-handling dynamics, which has increased the focus on reducing scrub radius to a small positive number. The steering axis inclination does contribute to the forces and moments in the steering system, so, on high down-force cars without power steering reducing the inclination will lighten the load at the steering wheel. This parameter also provides a self-centering effect in the steering which is considered to aid in controllability or stability. It also effects the roll center migration of a fixed point dual I beam.

On another note, dealing with the original subject matter, Sumner's Purplesage web site ( http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bonneville-Index.html ) has an interesting write up on the change they made to the KPI of his suspension and for another matter... an interesting insight into weight and pressure (center of gravity / center of pressure).

I'll second the Carroll Smith books. It should be mandated (required reading) that everyone read the Carroll Smith trio, Tune to Win, Engineered to Win and his book on fasteners. Good information, good satire and great explainations without going "brain child" on the reader.

Offline Chicane

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2007, 07:46:13 PM »
I have a sneaking feeling that this may be a large part of the problem.
More research needed....taking the car to a suspension shop

In your first post, you stated that the 'problem' would happen under power, neutral or on the binders... so unless your rear suspension is being compressed (or is much lower at static ride height than that of the stock suspension) this effect would be minimal and most likely not enough to induce a spin or toe steering it around.

But, it would be good to see just how much toe steer there is in your current suspension settings... as it to, is another kinematic unknown at this point of investigation.

Let us know your findings.  :-)

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2007, 10:37:30 PM »
I have not looked into scrub radius enough to fully understand how it affects the geometry and effects on handling but I did have an issue with the front wheels.

The problem was the stock Fiat wheel lug spacing....it was some odd metric size like 95.5X4 and finding acceptable racing wheels was going to be a problem and I wanted to keep the front and rear the same.

Because the rear uses Mazda/Ford 4.5X4 and is a very common size I found a company that makes a wheel adapter for the front that converts the 95.5 to 4.5.....this pushes the wheel out 1 1/4" but had wheels made with a 4" backset on a 5" wheel (standard would be a 2-3" backset on a 5 inch wheel).

The stock Fiat uses a 21.5" tire and I have a 22.5".....not a huge difference here but I dont know if using the wheel spacer and large backset to compensate could be causing an issue.
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline JackD

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007, 02:56:21 AM »
Scrub steer doesn't care how you get to the dimension, with spacers , or wheel offset.
It only cares about the final radius.
You can get away with a lot of things wrong until you break traction and then the trouble steps up. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline 836dstr

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2007, 02:21:23 PM »
Chicane & "Unkl Ian",

Thanks for your information on scrub radius. Between to 2 posts I now have an understanding of this topic. Running a Street Roadster with an "I-Beam" I have not experienced any real handling issues yet, but as speeds hopefully increase this is good info to know.

That's the GREAT thing about this Website. An semi unrelated question brings up new considerations. The sharing of knowledge really helps us all.

Thanks,

Tom

Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2007, 02:56:21 PM »
If you really want to have fun, try a + or - scrub radius with a front wheel drive car. Throw in a little stagger and things really get exciting.

Offline Chicane

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2007, 07:05:28 PM »
Chicane & "Unkl Ian",

Thanks for your information on scrub radius. Between to 2 posts I now have an understanding of this topic. Running a Street Roadster with an "I-Beam" I have not experienced any real handling issues yet, but as speeds hopefully increase this is good info to know.

That's the GREAT thing about this Website. An semi unrelated question brings up new considerations. The sharing of knowledge really helps us all.

Thanks,

Tom

You sir, are welcome.

Maybe some further discussion will take place at the next El Mo meet in Sept. Ill be in the SDRC pits... with the 866 and 832 crew.

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2007, 07:42:29 PM »
Made a toe bar today.....

Rear is 9/16" toe in.
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Unkl Ian

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2007, 08:30:42 PM »
That sounds very ......generous.


I suspect half of that would be too much.

What is the factory setting ?
I guess the answer is "a Secret" .

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2007, 07:52:37 AM »
If there's that much initially I'd sure be looking at bump steer as well, even with limited suspension travel.

Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2007, 05:41:17 PM »
Holy Cow Hotnuts!

The rear was toed in 9/16"? WOW. Is that vehicle a rear drive unit? IF so, the normal reaction of the rear drive is to toe in under power. Depends on lots of factors and such including whether rubber bushings are used etc. I would think that the toe dim would probably be about 1/16" to 3/32" probably out if a drive axle. :-o

Well, at least you found something that is highly suspect. Congrats on the record in spite of the problems with handling. You will get it sorted out and go faster and straighter next time. :wink:

Regards to All,
HB2 :-)
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

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