Author Topic: handling problem......  (Read 19237 times)

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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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handling problem......
« on: August 16, 2007, 07:08:20 PM »
This is my first post after arriving home from the salt and I am eager to know why I have a handling problem with the car.

Let me start by explaining what the problem is:

The car would run true and straight up to about 90 and felt great, steering was very predictable and seemed to track perfect. Somewhere when the speed would get higher the car would be going straight and for no apparent reason would veer hard right or left but would steer back to position fine but because of its sudden pull and the fact that if I didn't lift the 2 mile marker would of been a hood ornament I could not take the car much past 125 (and even that was insane because of the random veer) but even at 125+ the car would still drive and handle fine for a bit.....and then would veer again (and did not matter if it were power on, off, neutral or breaking).

I AM SURE THIS IS NOT A WIND RELATED ISSUE.
I am very familiar with how cross winds affect a car and I have felt winds and this is not it.
I AM ALSO SURE THIS IS NOT AN OVER POWERING ISSUE CAUSING THE BACK TO GET LOOSE.
It would happen at any stage of acceleration/deceleration and was random

(a little about the setup)

The front is stock Fiat but I am running ridged and strapped (I also have different height tubing I can slip over the strut to adjust the height of the front).
The steering box in extremely tight with no play and the bearings are new and properly set up.

The back is Mazda Rx7 independent with about 3" travel.
After talking with a few people I ran into a guy named Richard from the Hudson Boys CC team who has been making little cars go fast for a few years now and he took a look at my car and noticed that my rear tires have a negative camber ie:

http://www.desertrides.com/reference/images/terms/camber.gif

I never felt that it was an issue because I have owned a few V dubs that all had negative camber in the rear and they handled great....but I don't know if this will negatively effect a car on the salt.
Ricard also mentioned that I should run about a minimum of 10 degrees positive caster and that I should make damn sure my toe in and out was set up correctly.

Also take into consideration that I only did a "loose" string-tape set up in the rear for alignment and the car has never been taken to a proper alignment shop.


So does anyone have any ideas why the car would be going great and then randomly jerk to one side or the other?




jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline interested bystander

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2007, 07:32:03 PM »
OK, here's a bunch stuff from the LATE Carroll Smith's handbook re tuning racecar suspension. Under the topic INSTABILITY:

Rear wheel toe-out, either static due to incorrect (or backwards) setting or dynamic due to bump steer or deflection steer.

Vast lack of rear download or overwhelming preponderance of front download.

Loose or broken chassis, suspension link mounting point

UNDER HARD ACCELERATION:

Malfunctioning limited slip differential.

Insufficient rear toe in.

Deflection steer from rear chassis/suspension member or mounting point.

Rear tire stagger.

Dead rear shock absorber.

Wildly uneven corner weights.

STRAIGHT LINE INSTABILITY CAR DARTS OVER BUMPS

Excessive Ackermann steering geometry

Excessive front toe in or toe out.

Uneven front caster or trail settings.

Insufficient rear wheel droop travel.

Dead shock or uneven shock forces or incorrectly adjusted packers/bump rubbers

Wildly uneven corner weights.

Front anti-roll bar miles too stiff.

Don't shoot the messenger!


5 mph in pit area (clothed)

Offline JackD

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2007, 07:57:40 PM »
Front end aerodynamic lift. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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Offline interested bystander

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2007, 08:04:07 PM »
JACK, JACK, JACK!

After I scrambled to FIND Mr. Smith's handy little booklet and then typed my ancient finger (YES, singular) to the bone you've said it so succinctly! 

Sheesh!
5 mph in pit area (clothed)

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2007, 11:47:36 PM »
Let me say that I want to point counter-point this because it is important that I get a fix to the issue so don't think I am being a d-head by presenting an argument to a statement, I only wanting defined answers.

Jack:
Here is a pic of the car on the salt.


I don't know if you remember the post I did a while back about a question if frontal down would make the center of gravity move forward giving a vehicle more stability but I built the nose to give the car more frontal down force. Tom Burkland spent about an hour in my pit just hanging out BSing (very cool guy) mentioned that the idea I had about frontal down force will in fact not add to stability, and explained why, but I had already made the nose and could not change it there.

BUT, he also said that because I had built a nose that would generate so much down force and was in front of the front wheels that it could lever the rear to become light......

When I experienced the problem I raised the front about 2 inches to push a bit of air under the car to decrees the angle of the nose and push a bit of air under the nose to stop the massive down force caused by the steep angle and hopefully cure the handling issue......


It didnt.

I dont think it is because of of lift in the front......
Tell me otherwise if you think it is.

-JH

BTW:

Thanks for the help guys....I need it!!!!!!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 12:06:11 AM by Jonny Hotnuts »
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline JimL

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2007, 12:18:10 AM »
Dan Wagner and I had the same problem with a 158" w/b Modified Roadster for a couple of years.  It turned out I had set the front hubs up with too much Positive Scrub Radius.  When I moved the wheels inboard (with some one off hubs) the problem went away.  It didn't seem to matter how fast you went...it did it to Dan at 125 in '97, and it did it to me at 175-185 in '98.  It was much worse at El Mirage, jumping off the coarse in '98 and '99.....all of this before Greg Waters took a look at it and told me what was wrong.

It seems that if the scrub radius is too positive, all you have to do is hit a little softness or rutting and the affected wheel tries to swing outward, taking the steering with it.  It feels like someone is yanking the car back and forth, and will really bang your head around in the cage.  I finally settled on 3/4" positive scrub radius to keep enough feel in the car when using the parachute (without any, it got pretty swervy).  Once you have the scrub radius and caster working for you, the steering box doesn't need to be overtightened.

I don't know much about your rear end issue, but I remember a belly tank that ran fast with unusual camber in back.  It may have been better controlled than yours....I really don't know.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards, JimL

Offline JackD

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2007, 12:46:58 AM »
Look at the side profile of a high lift wing section over the picture of you car and see if you notice anything.
You will also notice the wing section runs the other way in flight.
All of the mechanical things mentioned are slightly different on every car, but the way you describe the sensation under all running conditions, and it is absolute speed related, it rings a bell. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline jackson

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 02:57:54 AM »
J,
This is just a thought, but I a hit big wind gust steer at the 2 and didn't feel any wind at either end of the track.  That was the first time I have had to turn the wheel at speed until the arm restraints cut off the steering travel (butterfly wheel, I always figured if I had to do more than that I would be crashing anyway).  If I had to guess I would blame it on the long nose in front of the wheels.  That gives the wind quite a bit of leverage to turn the car.  Especially in a short wheel base car like yours.  I know that is a ton of work to stretch your car, but you are still way under the wheel base max in that class. Longer is better, almost always in my opinion.

Jack #671 (The one that got his record qualifying pass blown away by the old Jack)

Offline JackD

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2007, 05:53:34 AM »
What geographical feature were you passing when the side wind occurred ?
The car guys get it for the most part, but many bikers don't believe it.
Oh well  ! :wink:

" A dustbin is most useful to contain sweepings after a cleanup."  (me)
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline wolbrink471

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2007, 10:43:22 AM »
too much work to go west, but still enough time to post here........

isn't this part of the ol' cg vs cp issue.

if JH filled the nose with lead shot or ???? would that help it?

I also noticed the air scoop and guess there is a rear engine that it feeds, so the cg and cp might be really close to begin with.  The nose would move the cp forward, maybe even past the cg?

hmmmmmm?

Mark

reread my post and am getting brave enough to try a JackDism, "Bar darts don't fly backwards very far"  :-)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 10:45:22 AM by wolbrink471 »
more information about the World's Fastest Dirt Bike at...... www.wolbrinkrace.com

Offline jackson

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2007, 11:25:50 AM »
Jack,
I have heard of a gap between the mountains to the North setting up a good cross wind, but I thought that was further to the East than the 2.  It was also pretty slick on Saturday so it might have just been wheel spin (although I didn't hear the engine wind up).  What ever it was it got my attention.     

Offline JackD

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 11:32:48 AM »
Do we remember how to determine the CP at home ?
The picture on here, glued to a piece of cardboard would do just fine.
Can we determine the CG ( don't forget the driver and all the driver stuff ) by jacking it up on 2 points ? :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Chicane

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2007, 11:45:35 PM »


...isn't this part of the ol' cg vs cp issue.

That is exactly what my first thought was.

Primarily, gravity exerts a constant pull on the body and acts through the center of gravity (CG) which is determined by the distribution of weight throughout the body. Gravity always produces a uniform vertical acceleration of about 9.8 m/s2.

Next we have aerodynamic forces which provide lift and drag the body as its driven through the air. Aerodynamic forces are generally proportional to the velocity squared. The aerodynamic forces act through the center of pressure (CP) which is a function of the body's shape.

There are three types of drag force which apply:

1. Skin drag- friction on the outer surface as it moves through the air
2. Shape drag- caused by low pressure behind the body due to the flow of air around its shape.
3. Wave drag - a loss of energy that is put into acoustic LF waves as the body passes through the air. (Particularly strong near the speed of sound in air.)

All drag forces act at the center of pressure and are in the opposite direction as the motion of the projectile. The drag force can be written as:

Fdrag = CD(a) A ½ rv2

where:
CD(a)= the coefficient of drag, which is a function of the angle of attack, a;
A = the effective area of the body ;
r = the density of air (~1.2 Kg/m3); and
v = the velocity of the body relative to the air stream.

The lift force acts perpendicular to the direction of motion relative to the air stream. It has the same form as drag

Flift = CL(a) A ½ rv2

where: CL(a) = the coefficient of lift, which is a function of the angle of attack, a.


If the center of pressure is located behind the center of gravity, the aerodynamic forces create a restoring torque which tend to drive the body back to its neutral angle, where all the torques are balanced. This situation is therefore inherently stable, since the body will always be driven back to neutral angle.

... just a thought.

Offline JackD

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2007, 02:22:46 AM »
"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know" A. Lincoln :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline 836dstr

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Re: handling problem......
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2007, 12:56:04 PM »
JimL,

How would you define "Positive Scrub Radius"? It sounds like it might be a function of toe-in and axle castor. I haven't heard the term before, but would certainly like to know more about it.

Tom