Author Topic: FIA Class Breaks  (Read 15719 times)

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Offline Malcolm UK

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FIA Class Breaks
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2005, 05:31:54 AM »
Dynoroom (Michael) - not even the most cynical of F1 reporter could have the FIA colluding with Michelin just to get at the potential breakaway Manufacturer supported teams (other than Ferrari who are committed to FIA/F1 beyond 2007)!  

Michelin tried to keep ahead of the Bridgestone teams ... made the tyre to a structure that failed .... then hoped that at 14:6 odds they would be bailed out by the FIA sporting Stewards changing the rules ... and now they have had to find at least $8m to pay back the spectators entrance money - but not their travel and hotel costs, that must be substantially more.  

FIA as an organisation (led by Max) has sporting powers to create the 'playing field' for F1, it is up to Bernie and the track owners to promote & sell the event and then certain individuals make a comfortable living from all the sponsorship and advertising money that flows around the 17 races.  Do remember the NHRA and NASCAR are part of the FIA 'family' too and they manage to get their sports running well most of the time.

I would suggest that there is no major link between the F1 Grand Prix world and Landspeed record attempts - other than the FIA organisation being the sporting governing body over them.  The growth of individuals power and the secrecy of commercial arramngements in F1 makes it a totally different branch of motor sport.  Indeed it is a worldwide niche promoted as the twenty best race cars and race drivers in the world (a fresh argument?).

Landspeed racing on the other hand, under the FIA regulations, is administered by the sporting authority in each country.  Whilst the FIA has a multi-national records commission to ensure that the operating rules have been correctly applied at each attempt, it is 'local' people who govern, manage and scrutinise the attempts made.  You break an FIA LSR in Europe then it is as true a reflection of speed performance as if it had been broken in the USA.  

If my aged memeory serves me, I was once asked face to face by former outright record holder Richard Noble, when I was looking into forming an organisation to promote record breaking across Europe, if I wanted to be the "Bernie" of LSR.  I said I had no intentions to do that.  I can tell you all, and you already know, that there is no money to be made in speed record breaking activity - its a net outgoing year after year.  Unless that is you want me as the "Bernie" of LSR then it would just require you all to dip into your pockets even more!  :lol:

By the way has ACCUS.FIA had anything to say about the Indy event held in the Country that they have the sporting control?
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline JackD

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RIGHT ON (American slang)
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2005, 01:13:36 PM »
MK is exactly correct even after translation. LOL
I am assured the ACCUS/ FIA agreement was honored and the information comes from those in the business.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Dynoroom

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FIA Class Breaks
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2005, 08:43:45 PM »
Quote from: Malcolm UK
Dynoroom (Michael) -
Michelin tried to keep ahead of the Bridgestone teams ... made the tyre to a structure that failed .... then hoped that at 14:6 odds they would be bailed out by the FIA sporting Stewards changing the rules ... and now they have had to find at least $8m to pay back the spectators entrance money - but not their travel and hotel costs, that must be substantially more.  

Malcolm, Everything you said is true except this one issue for me. Bridgestone/Firestone runs at Indy for the 500 and i'm sure their test data is better. Michelin should have tested more for sure but didn't. So we get a nothing race because of it?
One other thing, why do we need a "world" racing athority?
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

LittleLiner

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USGP Just missed 7th place
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2005, 02:16:32 PM »
Darn . . .If I had only known.  To think I could have entered my 2001 Honda Civic and got a 7th in the USGP.   . . .Oh, wait a minute.  I spoke to soon.  I forgot that my Civic has Michelins.

John Beckett

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FIA Class Breaks
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2005, 09:20:12 PM »
Back to the original topic heading ?FIA class breaks?.  I?ll admit up front that I have never been a fan of the FIA. And here is one of the reasons. Basically you only have two categories to run in, Production or Streamliner. Yes there are various engine breaks, but as for the rest of the racers, who probably make up the majority of LSRacer?s, there is no place for us. Does the FIA even know what a Roadster is?

So a lot of the disinterest or dissatisfaction with the FIA is rooted here.

JB

Offline JackD

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CORRECT
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2005, 10:23:13 PM »
The FIA has never been about the multitude of classes that make up the local sport.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: CORRECT
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2005, 12:39:21 PM »
Quote from: JackD
The FIA has never been about the multitude of classes that make up the local sport.


Yep, that must be the reason they (FIA) cover World Ralley, F-1, Touring Cars, etc. because all those cars only need 2 classes. The FIA started because of LSR now they shun it, so be it.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline JackD

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INTERESTING
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2005, 12:57:31 PM »
I would be interested to hear how the FIA started with LSR.
It could clear up a lot of confusion.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline D-Type

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Re: INTERESTING
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2005, 06:18:51 PM »
Quote from: JackD
I would be interested to hear how the FIA started with LSR.
It could clear up a lot of confusion.

From memory:
Before WW1, after one of the Gordon Bennet races, the national motor clubs of the main motoring nations formed the AIACR - The Association International des Automobile Clubs Reconnus (Recognized).  They later renamed the organisation the FIA - Federation International d'Automobile.
Initially the organisation focussed on non sporting areas, e.g. touring, road maps, road books, hotel guides, motor taxation, etc.  
Then disputes arose when various people in different parts of the World were claiming they had set World records.  Some were recognised by one club, say the ACF, the Automobile Club de France,and some by others duch as the RAC, the (British) Royal Automobile Club.  disagreements were generally about the validity of timing methods and also, but less significantly about the measurement of the distance.  So as the International body so that there would be a common International basis for records, the AIACR or FIA laid down a set of rules.  These rules were then enforced, or maybe administered is a better word, by the national clubs.  this ensured some commonality between records set on a highway in Belgium, a frozen lake in Canada or a beach in Florida.
After complaints about wind advantage or getting some help from a hill they introduced two way runs with a time limit between runs and rules about how level a course should be.
As motor sport developed the FIA expanded its role to set rules for International competition.  Capacity classes for records were introduced, they made rules or formulas for International racing, etc.  In time as the workload grew the FIA set up a specialist sub committee, the Commission Sportif International or CSI to specialise in the regulation of International competition.
So we reach today's situation with LSR which was once the only form of international motor sport the FIA regulated becoming a small element of the many facets the FIA now covers.
At different times different branches of motor sport have their differences with the FIA, witness the long-running dispute with the FOCA or Formula One constructors' Association which is still simmering below the surface.  But generally the main national clubs ensure that the international regulations respect what they want.  
From what I have read on this board, some people fail to see the difference between a local organisation serving its members' wishes and an international organisation serving the international community.

I think I've got the main points correct, but I'm sure if I've got a detail wrong someone will correct me.
Oh Lord, please help me to keep my big mouth shut until I know what I am talking about

Offline JackD

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My research indicates
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2005, 06:48:14 PM »
Your memory is pretty close.
Not bad for a translation from English to American.  LOL
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

rosemeyer

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FIA Class Breaks
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2005, 08:03:21 PM »
Re the FIAsco at the US GP. Michelin failed alright, but can you explain me why F1 teams are prohibited -by the FIA - to test in North America?
Firestone AKA Bridgestone has plenty of experience and data of the Indy oval, Michelin just the last 2 (or is it 3) US GPs. No other regular testing tracks has the same characteristics, nor put the tires under such stress.
Anyway, at Indy the F1 go the wrong way!! Ovals are to be tackled ANTI-clockwise, for Godness' sake!!!
The first time I saw a F1 turning right on the banking, I switched off the box!! Heresy!!!  

 :evil:

Offline Malcolm UK

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FIA Class Breaks
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2005, 08:45:27 AM »
John B - glad to see from a photo sent to me that you were not harmed by the Maxton "off".  The Honda looks a little second hand but I hope that you can get ready for Bonneville.

Back to the topic of FIA classes.

As to whether or not the FIA know of a "roadster" - probably not and they will not probably care at all that they have not got a clue.  The FIA rules look at cubic capacity splits and that is probably very reasonable if this group, as they are, is only seeking to sanction the speeds of the fastest in each class.

The FIA International records are adjudged to be at the pinnacle of the 'sport'.  And the production records are for the well financed Manufacturers!  

All racer nations can have 'National bias' based on their local or national records and any local class description of cars.  It just so happens that here in the UK the Motor Sports Association (our National governing body) have followed the FIA classes completely and so we have not developed any body configuration alternatives over here.  

However you will see that there are cars that hold FIA and MSA records that are not streamliners or lakesters.  I agree many are now led by the streamliners, but do look closely at the names such as MG, Lincoln Mercury (especially in the unblown petrol and both Diesel groups & classes) - you may find a class where an FIA record can be achieved with another type of car.  With the right engine the So Al 2 car might be able to eclipse the MG?

If you have a fast enough 'roadster' or Comp Coupe even, you could take an FIA International record at any time that you want to set up an attempt.  I do not know if such a car could run or would be allowed to run a SCTA/BNI International record, to the FIA style of rules, at Bonneville during the World Finals?

Now - as the Monster Mile short course activity does not come under the MSA or FIA scheme of record breaking - I think that there could be a worldwide form of speed record breaking that could readily encompass the class body types seen in various nations.  You can run a 'roadster' in the USA if I can run a 'Milk Float' in the UK, for a worldwide recognised speed record.
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline JackD

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If you are fast enough,
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2005, 12:08:34 PM »
the rest will take care of it's self.
I set both an SCTA and an FIA record with the same Buick at speedweek.
Much to the delight of Porsche and Buick but not GMC.
All you have to do is do it.
Well financed is not always well... faster.
The Nerc is another example.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline KEVIN

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FIA
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2005, 10:20:25 PM »
WE DON'T NEED FIA. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE " LAND SPEED AUTHORITY" ? I THOUGHT THAT WAS BNI'S REPLACEMENT FOR THE FIA. IT HAS ALL THE SCTA/BNI CLASSES. IF I REMEMBER RIGHT WE WERE ALSO ALLOWED TO RUN A FEW EXTRA MILES IF THE COARSE PERMITTED. AND BEST OF ALL IT WAS OVERSEEN BY THE SCTA/BNI BOARD.

Offline D-Type

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FIA Class Breaks
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2005, 05:34:55 PM »
Is it Internationally recognised?  Does it police records set in, say, Australia or Russia or England?
Oh Lord, please help me to keep my big mouth shut until I know what I am talking about