Author Topic: what say ye  (Read 17126 times)

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Offline Stroker

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2007, 09:33:56 AM »
After observing F1 and Nascar for many year, I'm aware of the "if you can't compete on the track, beat them in boardroom" style of racing.
That stuff all happens under the table and gets announced on the next TV extravaganza.
What I don't understand is how flagrant and obvious mis-applications of the rules are ok for some people, but not for others.
I offer [600]http://www.ecta-lsr.com/bikes/566.jpg[450] as an example.
This machine currently holds 3 or 4 ECTA records in M/PF & M/PG. How did something like that slip through tech?

Offline Stroker

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2007, 10:04:29 AM »
Scott, as you know, I'm a newbie, but that bike has always run in Altered as the seat height and wheelbase would seem to indicate. I've never measured those things, but the photo and personal observation sure make it look too long with too low a seat.
It was suggested in a previous post that 7625 was "illegal for any class".
Sitting the 2 bikes side by side, one looks a lot more "illegal" than the other for modified, to my eye.
This is a purely subjective opinion. The records stand. I guess my question is how the standards are applied, to whom and by whom.

aswracing

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2007, 10:57:27 AM »
Hawk, Techs job is not to interpet what is legal or not.  Their job is to check for proper following of construction rules, safety equipment for the vehicle, driver, and push vehicle.  When you get to impound is where the fine toothed comb comes out.................

I haven't found this to be true at all. I've been failed in tech for class compliance issues.

One time I took my bike to tech with the rear ride height jacked up. It just makes the bike easier to move around, unload or load into the trailer, and drop the bodywork. So anyway, they whip out their little fixture and decide I'm a half inch too tall on the tail (one of the more stoopid rules if you ask me, as lots of bikes are over 36" as delivered brand new from the factory).

I explained that I'd set the ride height before we raced it and it'd be right should we make it to impound, but that got me nowhere. I asked why they were checking a class compliance issue in tech, and it clearly took them off guard, they obviousy hadn't considered the distinction between safety and class compliance. They had no answer at first, but later decided they were within their rights to call me on it because rear ride height is a safety issue. For crying out loud, guess all those factory Japanese bikes are dangerous right off the showroom floor, huh? How do you argue with logic like that, anyway? I said screw it, and adjusted the ride height, made'em happy. But it sure annoyed me.

I've raced circle track, drag racing, and sports cars (SCCA) since 1978. I've been through a hell of a lot of tech inspections. I've always viewed tech as an opportunity to get a second set of eyes looking at my stuff, and I've always found tech inspectors to be people who aren't out to get you, but rather people who apply common sense and reason and are there to help you. But I'll tell ya, I haven't found that to be true in SCTA at all. To them, it's a contest. They're looking for something to harass you about and they don't give a damn if it makes sense or not. It's like they want to keep you from racing. The ridiculous leathers rules just give them one more reason to keep you out. A perfect example of a lack of common sense.


bak189

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2007, 11:50:04 AM »
QUESTION......why is it that we hear little or no complains regarding SCTA/BNI Tech. for the cars?????  But we have plenty of complains about M/C Tech.........is it because the bikers like to bitch?.........is it because the bike rules need to be re-written?........is it because there need to be a change in personnel in Tech. inspection?........or is it all of the above........back in the "old" days of JackD inspections......we had no problems....the rules made sense........(except of course the no passenger in the sidecar, but that was not Jack's fault)   

Offline JackD

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2007, 01:10:40 PM »
SEE ?
There ya go , Bob is at it again APPARIENTLY. (Doncha just love that word ? If we put in the rulebook we can do anything we want to anybody we don't want.)
I argue with him all the time about stuff, and ya know that probably ain't never gonna end.
That is really the best part because at the end of the day , we both know each other had the same objective at heart.
He singles me out for mention, but ya know it WAS a package deal with everybody giving and getting equal treatment.
That is the secret that has been lost to the sport and gets worse every day.
The bike program is always going to stand out for all the reasons bikers are accustomed to and they have to be better, just to be equal.
At this point, they are not and it shows.
I guess it has slipped so far now so as to go unnoticed.
If you want it to continue along it's present path, well you are on your way.
If you want to see it survive, you don't need me to hold your hand, or even restore the people you mention, but a common attitude with a group action will be heard the best.
"All you have to do is do it."
Well , that is how I see it anyway. :x
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Stroker

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2007, 03:56:52 PM »
Scott, I have no issue with 566 in altered class. I believe it belongs there. I was questioning why it holds 3 records in M/PF and M/PG.
1000 CC Pushrod Records

1012   M/PG-1000/4   Sportster List Race Team   Thomas Cronan   Mar-04   140.946
566   M/PF-1000/4   Lone Eagle Racing   Chris 'Dad' Land   Oct-03   136.986
1012   M/PBG-1000/4   Sportster List Race Team   Lee Tindall   Mar-04   139.258
979   M/PBF-1000/4   Snart Racing   Thomas Cronan   Oct-04   134.194
566   MPS/PG-1000/4   Lone Eagle Racing   Todd Dross   Oct-03   138.019
566   MPS/PF-1000/4   Lone Eagle Racing   Todd Dross   Oct-03   136.429
1300   MPS/PBG-1000/4   Twin Jugs Racing   Todd Dross   May-06   140.937
1300   MPS/PBF-1000/4   Twin Jugs Racing   Todd Dross   May-06   138.336

There may be reasons that I'm not aware of that this can happen. I'm just trying to get an understanding of how those might work. I appreciate your help Scott.

Offline Stroker

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2007, 06:49:07 PM »
Anything is possible Scott, but, as far as I know, it did not. The modified runs were made after I had left the track so I can only speculate.
It seems unlikely that one would make all the changes required to change the classification on a Sunday afternoon between 3:pm and closing. I know Chris is a great mechanic, but I can't imagine him going to all that effort.
I learned about those runs about 2 weeks later when the results were posted on the ECTA site, far too late to question how and what was done.
I guess what prompted this question is the picture of 7625 and the suggestion it was "illegal in any class" with a smaller pic of 1300 right beside it showing the rider's head obscured by the air scoop / cleaner. Pot calling the kettle?
7625 ran that bodywork for only one year and it wasn't any faster than it had been the years before. Expensive lesson in aero, but not a very successful one.

landracing

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2007, 11:18:09 PM »
QUESTION......why is it that we hear little or no complains regarding SCTA/BNI Tech. for the cars?????  But we have plenty of complains about M/C Tech.........is it because the bikers like to bitch?.........is it because the bike rules need to be re-written?........is it because there need to be a change in personnel in Tech. inspection?........or is it all of the above........back in the "old" days of JackD inspections......we had no problems....the rules made sense........(except of course the no passenger in the sidecar, but that was not Jack's fault)   

Bak,

You bring a very very very very valid points there. The car guys rules are very clear, concise and haven't made EXTREME changes for as long as I remember. There have been so many changes in the last couple of years for bikes that it seems like it is getting out of hand.

The answer I would like, is IF there is a change in any part of the rules, that EVERY entrant that year gets a ballot in the mail for a yes or no. Now the likely hood of that happening is pretty slim. Wether you are a SCTA member or BNI member. Treat us as equals SCTA -vs- BNI. Since that BNI funds are a MAJOR income to the SCTA, we should be treated as equals. Once all the ballots get in a CAR guy to count the ballots. Then there is no bias to the counting of votes.

Jon

Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2007, 11:59:22 PM »
Bob's points are very valid.  The bike rule "committee" seem to change the rules because there is nothing else to do over the winter.  As has been said there is no consultation with the riders.  What bothers me most is the fact that the rule changes go to the board for approval in Jan. or Feb. and we race in May.  If you are building a bike to a particular class there is'nt a lot of time left to make all the changes.  I feel that any changes should be put to a vote amongst the riders.  And any fundamental changes should have a least a seasons lead time.

Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline JackD

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2007, 01:17:07 AM »
Keep going guys.
You are beginning to stand up. then you will have to be counted. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2007, 02:20:27 AM »
I've been saying what I wrote above for a long time.  So far it seems I've been talking to myself.
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

aswracing

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2007, 08:15:15 AM »
I've been saying it too. In all of the venues I've raced in, for all the different sanctioning bodies, I've never, ever seen rules administered with so little regard for or feedback from the racers. They run basically open loop, what they say goes whether it makes sense or not, and we get essentially no input. It costed me thousands of dollars when they changed that rule about the engine cases with no notice or warning whatsoever. The leathers rule is another example, when did we ever get asked about that? Both changes were expensive and just totally off the chart stupid.

bak189

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2007, 10:57:02 AM »
I have been a BNI member for 30 years to date......and I plan to continue my membership in the future.  But I should point out that since 2003
I have supported and raced our equipment at the BUB Speed Trials...........and BOY, they certainly have their problems in both rules and Tech...... it is a learning process......and, yes, it is getting better.  The first time I raced with SCTA/BNI back in 1954....yes 1954.....they basicly had NO M/C rules. (did not come back to LSR until the mid-1970's) At the BUB we race under AMA/FIM rules
and the AMA has allowed some of us more "experienced" LSR racers to give input and even change the rules. (for 2007 we made some
changes to the sidecar rules)  and I am certain that more input from the "racers" will be forthcoming in the future.  But I have not given up racing with BNI in the future, and feel a more
democratic way of puttin the rules together is a
necessity.  I am a firm believer in the "KISS SYSTEM" (keep it simple stupid) and in writting racing rules this should always be kept in mind.
 

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2007, 11:05:05 AM »
Hmm, what's the rule mean -- "forward of the rider"?  Does it mean "In front of the front-most part of the rider"?  If that's the case, then the rule might have different interpretations depending on whether the rider's hands, on the grips, are the front-most part of him, or if the front-most part of the rider's helmet is the first part of the rider that passes through a vertical plane.

If this is THE correct interpretation -- then the sky is the limit for the rest of the bike -- fairing in front of the rider's legs, chin fairing under the motor (as long as it's behind the front of the rider), etc, etc.

Then there's the interpretation that would have us look at the rider, on the bike, from the front view.  Ah, HA!  Now anything that obscures the view of the rider that can be considered to have "...the apparent purpose of directing, limiting, or controlling airflow around the motorcycle or rider." is forbidden, as would be the afore-mentioned chin tank (because it's in front of the rider's foot position, right, even if not specifically in front of his feet because of lateral placement).  No allowance for the coolant overflow tank that's positioned in front of the rider's leg, no allowance for a fancy swoopy dashboard that might coincidentally direct airflow away from the rider, etc, etc.

Next year's rule book will cover all of these possible interpretations by specifically and definitively spelling out each rule in clear and unambiguous language.  The rulebook will be available for the usual ten dollars, but a shipping fee of about $400 will be charged since the damn thing will have to be delivered by a small semi.  The rulebook may be a few months late in being published since the writers will have to consider each and every rules' possible interpretations and make a determination as to what is really meant to be said.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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bak189

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Re: what say ye
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2007, 11:22:52 AM »
Let's use the "KISS SYSTEM"