what say ye

[hawkwind]

look at the pic ,circled is what I'm interested in , on an open bike ( non streamlined) the rules state no streamlining forward of the rider , question would a water tank in this position be considered streamlining ,if it was shaped similar or even a cube ? what say ye



Gary

[JackD]

If it controls or directs air forward of the rider it has been defined as streamlining in LSR.
It is known as a "chin tank" or a "chin fairing".

[hawkwind]

Well Jack it appears that an entrant in the 05 speed week managed to get  through tech,



cheers

[Bob Drury]

Hawk, Techs job is not to interpet what is legal or not.  Their job is to check for proper following of construction rules, safety equipment for the vehicle, driver, and push vehicle.  When you get to impound is where the fine toothed comb comes out.................

[1212FBGS]

bob
you would be correct if your statement was for any other race organization, but not the SCTA. In the SCTA you are SOMETIMES scrutinized to the legality of class entered right from the start... I have had a couple of arguments with mostly the bike tech guys, any even withdrew my 750mps bike from speed week 03 because of it. It was an ugly, ugly scene right in front of the magazine editor (Peter Jones) who was to race the bike ( he did not have a kind opinion of SCTA tech procedures in his article). The worst part of it was that there was 3 other bikes that were teched and currently racing that event including wink (one of the event tech guys) and Jasons bike was in impound not 30 feet away with the same tail on it!!!! Legality is truely with the eye of the tech guy... It is a well known problem and Latten is trying to fix it right now, i believe we will. My advise.. get your stuff legal to the book and race it at one event before b'vill so you can fix any problems before you go to the salt... Shoot that reminds me of another story about my 'liner's fire nozzles
To answer your question if you put a devise in front of the rider, that has a definate purpose, then it will be legal. But if you make a round edge or make it into a wedge as an attempt to get better air flow around it, they'll bust ya. if you mount a conputer, that would normally fit under the tail, up on the front fairing bracket and then angle it rearward, then yes they will bust ya. The tech guys arn't stupid.
kent

[JackD]

Well Jack it appears that an entrant in the 05 speed week managed to get  through tech,



cheers

Good example from both of you.
As you can expect, i am glad you guys brought it up.
I always felt the lack of advice from the tech people with respect to the class legality of the entry was a disservice to the entrant and everybody else.
I am the one that suggested the requirement for the class designation be clearly shown with the entry number to reduce the problems that sometimes come as a surprise when it is too late.
I do not delight in catching a person in a mistake or allowing a cheater.
I hate that as a competitor and official.
The MC tech has deteriorated to the point where a stock ignition cover on a Vincent was determined to be "streamlining" and required to be removed to the lack of equal enforcement for selected others and all under the eyes of the same wizard.
The word I am looking for is the French spelling that sounds like "Click".
It is certainly all foreign to me and looks more like the end every day, kinda like the end you see on a bent over plumber.

Was I too harsh ?

[JackD]

DISCLAIMER
I am not responsible for Kent's opinions that he has formed with his own experience, I just took him to his first event (84) and hopefully pointed him in the right direction.
It seems he has gathered some valuable experience and is not afraid to act on it.
I guess that is all I can ask.
Jack

[narider]

Have also heard it refered to as a spoiler(possibly in regards to what it does to an open class entrants feelings if a record is made?).

And for those rules that have a definition that includes the word "appearant"... then it relies on "WHO" it is appearant to!?

As shown below(per the lower air damn, battery box, oil tank, etc. and the M/PG-2000 class entered), it appears as it has still gone unquestioned for two meets at ECTA now. Possibly due to the fact that it was 20mph below it's entered class' pre-meet record(and is now 33mph below it's class record), or possibly because of the latest ruling proccess on another bike in that organization?
One thing is for certain... it will not be me that misinterprets the rulebook(be it the "written word" or the "intended word", whichever is decided to go by on something like this), or the person making the decision's thought process, or the influence ability of the organizations largest lobbyists.

Now that I look... it's base class had a pre-meet record of 5mph slower then the class entered, and there are actually records it is legal for that were obtainable at it's present speed. With that knowledge I wish that I(or others that commented on it) had taken time to mention it to the owner so he could of legally scored a record run. But then(thinking it through a step further), if "the damn" is deemed a functional item and not an aerodynamic item, then the entrant could be protested for running an open bike in a partially streamlined class!
There are some gun shy members(myself included) after seeing the results and proposed future from the last classification issue presented to management.
Todd

[JackD]

Keep the rule wording simple to understand and it will be easier to correctly identify and enforce.
When in discussion with an entrant, make sure they understand the written rule and be prepared to give them enough valid reasons for it so they reach the conclusion you already have.
Their understanding also contributes to the possible revisions that should include all the parties involved.
Treat everybody as adults, fairly, equally, and you will find they will support the effort, even if some detail doesn't agree with their idea.
Fail that and you will get your neck stepped on.
I saw a repeat of a quote just this AM on the subject of licencing.
It said "More words, same rule".

[Dynoroom]

Keep the rule wording simple to understand and it will be easier to correctly identify and enforce.
When in discussion with an entrant, make sure they understand the written rule and be prepared to give them enough valid reasons for it so they reach the conclusion you already have.
Their understanding also contributes to the possible revisions that should include all the parties involved.
Treat everybody as adults, fairly, equally, and you will find they will support the effort, even if some detail doesn't agree with their idea.
Fail that and you will get your neck stepped on.
I saw a repeat of a quote just this AM on the subject of licencing.
It said "More words, same rule".

Wow! I've never understood Jack better... well said.

Enjoy the long weekend everyone.

[landracing]

Actually I had a DIRECT question about this very rule.

Here is exactly what was said. And I am quoting this from email because it is directly related to this post.

"Russ,

Can you define or clarify 7.F.11:1

....Streamlining is defined as any devices or objects forward of the rider
that has the apparent purpose of directing, limiting, or controlling
airflow
around the motorcycle or rider...

What is considered forward of the rider. AT what point of the rider. Butt,
shoulders, helmet, hands? What exactly is cutoff point of "rider?"

Jon"

The response was.

"Jon,
      The rider is defined as from the knuckle to the rear most portion of
the rider, in some cases the back of the butt, or the heel of the foot,
whichever is rearmost."



Good info.

Jon

[landracing]

Narider,

Seems the picture you posted of that harley is illegal in more ways then one.

Jon

[JackD]

I guess I don't get it.
If you can't figure out what forward of the rider means you probably can't spot them in the first place. 

[Dean Los Angeles]

Jon, why of all people, do you not use the quote function?

"Jon,
      The rider is defined as from the knuckle to the rear most portion of
the rider, in some cases the back of the butt, or the heel of the foot,
whichever is rearmost."

Jon,
      The rider is defined as from the knuckle to the rear most portion of
the rider, in some cases the back of the butt, or the heel of the foot,
whichever is rearmost.

Just curious.
Oh, and you should post that quote somewhere permanent.

I can't remember or find the reference, but for the El Mirage season points it seems that some competitors were running blatantly illegal and under the record so they could get points and no impound. The procedure was changed so that a competitor could ask that the vehicle be inspected for rules compliance.  Somebody help me out here. I looked in the March 2007 El Mirage Procedures and couldn't find it. The 2006 procedures are still the only online version.

There isn't anything in the bike tech inspection sheet to indicate class check, but there is in the car inspection. That isn't their goal, safety is. But if the tech guy sees something he should tell you to keep you from the time and money to make a record run for nothing.

Impound clearly states that body class, displacement, and technical requirements will be checked for compliance.

[landracing]

I guess I don't get it.
If you can't figure out what forward of the rider means you probably can't spot them in the first place. 

Jeez Jack,

You slap us for not knowing the rules, then slap me again for asking for clarification.. What gives???

There is always a reason for a question.... You think about it some more...

Jon