Question for the 'Top Guns' on 2 wheels.

[rosemeyer]

I don't really know how to start this thread or even if it's appropriate. In any case, I don't want to stir trouble, but it's about the FIM world Records recognition.
 I have nothing against the FIM but, to me, their criteria to obtain a World Record on 2 wheels favor streamliners. Looking through the history of the World Motorcycle Land Speed Record, it seems that since the last Henne's record in 1936 (?), and even more since the record of Johny Allen on a Triumph in 1955, no world record has been taken by a 'conventional' bike (I choose the term carefully as not to offend anybody). Henne broke the record on a bike completely enclosed. With Allen started the fashion of streamliners where riders are feet first in an anclosed 'cigar'. Since that sime, every holder of the FIA record was riding a streamliner - Johnson, Leppan, Vesco, Rayborn, Campos - and every present contender has adopted that layout too - Lambky, Wheeler, Ack Attack, etc... As far as I can see, and I don't really mind being corrected, the last holder of the world record on a 'conventional' bike was Briton Eric Fernihough on a Brough.
 To me, by only retaining the engine capacity as criteria, the FIM has handed the record for ever to streamliners and completely obliterated the chances of 'conventional' bikes, also called 'sit-on' or 'open' bikes. I don't think that an 'open' bike will ever beat a streamliner for aerodynamic reasons alone. The frontal area will always be larger, the wheelbase shorter and so on... They are 2 completely different types of 2 wheelers, yet for the FIM, they are amalgamated in the same category.
 The speeds achieved at Maxton and Bonneville by John Minon, John Noonan or Scott Guthrie to name a few make me think that maybe, it's time for them to get some 'official' recognition, namely a FIM World record. The SCTA, ECTA and BUB meetings witness astonishing speeds and intense competition from the latest APS/MPS bikes (maybe I am slightly confused about the exact classes, but it seems that the name Hayabusa keeps coming again and again!), but all they can obtain is a local/national record.
 Ao, my question is this (are you still following me?):
 -Through your clubs, national sporting association, organisers, etc... have you ever thought about lobbying the FIM to obtain a different class for 'open' bikes?
 My definition of an 'open' bike is one where the rider sit astride, get on without having to remove any part of the bodywork, and where he/she is completely visible from either side, with the exception of hands and forearms - partial streamlining in the SCTA rules book. It looks like APS and MPS are just that. John Noonam's bike with an Airtech fairing, or Ed Mabry's Triumph is what I have in mind.
 Dealing with an intrnational body is not easy, and I suppose that it would take time for the FIM to accept the argument and alter its rules. Anyhow, I just thought these guys deserve better than 'just' a SCTA record and certificate. I know which bikes I like to watch, and which riders I admire most!

[JackD]

The rules are in place and the most recient event in the USA was the BUB meeting last year.
 A number of FIM World records were set at that meet. The wet did not allow the fastest open bikes to run up to their potential, however the opportunity is the same for all.
 Some of the slower classes were not as affected by the conditions.
 When the records catch up to the technology, you may find the fastest open bike is not the one with the most potential, but rather the one that makes best use of it.
 FIM attempts in the US have been singular efforts and usually for overall top speed. FIM endurance records have been set here more than once.
 The BUB event is an attempt to bring FIM recognition to a meet with all classes available to everyone. The object is to reduce the cost to the individual and therby make it more available and user friendly.
 The US bikes will support it as they see fit.
 Other types of competition such as the terminal speed at the end of a measured distance is something that has yet to be accepted World Wide but seems reasonable. It fits the available space in more locations around the World.  I am sure the bike community would like an equal chance at it with out traveling to just a couple of spots.
 A single standard, accessible World Wide will produce the best results and the fastest too.

[Marcroux]

The only streamliner record I can find in FIM records on this web is Dave Campos'. All the others are set at places other than Bonneville and I assume with bikes that are not streamliners. A world record holder is the rider/bike combination that covers the established distance in the shortest time.There is only ONE world record for each distance and the record holder can be from any class. There may be an international record for each class so there a large, and confusing number of records.  
  I think what you want has already being done just no one cares outside of the LSR community. What I want to know what happen to the NSU, Vesco and Rayborn records I thought they were FIM records, I know they have not been broken as they are still in the SCTA rule book.
 Marc Roux

[JackD]

The listing in the SCTA rule book has no direct reflection on World Record status of any vehicle.
 The status of each class of World Record should include a listing of the previous record holder for historical purposes.
 Adninistrative details got a little carried away with recient publications and need a  work.
 The car list is in the same shape and needs attention.
 The accomplishments of the entrants are no less important and that is responsible foe most of the screaming around here.
 The ability to research the record is very important to many and the certificate recognition is important to the record holde as well.
 The system is there and will be better when it is more user friendly for everyone.
 To raise another flag is to start another war.
 The USA just got done breaking off from the Brits and California might be next. Perhaps they are taking lessons from Ireland with a North / South split as well.
 It's funny, there is no argument about the accuracy of the Guiness book, only the country of origin. J/K

[Malcolm UK]

The construction regulations of the FIM do allow for World records to be set by 'conventional' motorcycles and motorcycle/sidecars.  In the highest speed ranges the streamliners get the 'ink' as they are 300+ mph potential. Most of the records on the current list are for the ride on type bikes or those with that posture and dustbin fairings.
 
 The FIM have frozen many older records - in 1979 I think (but do not quote me) - as they have chosen to determine the record speed by averaging the speeds of two runs, not the times of two runs.  there may also have been some construction rule changes that affected the picture and so a freeze was applied and these records will stand for all time. Hence the current list does not show the speeds set by some of the quickest of their day.
 
 The FIM have chosen not to list the previous record who has been beaten - and we only have to look at the mailings on the FIA to see that putting down old records can be disliked - but there are sources of data.
 
 As JackD has pointed out FIM and SCTA bike records may differ - the FIM allow competition on many tracks.

[LittleLiner]

I think I understand the point that Rosemeyer is making but why just speak about the bike situation.  Also look at the cars where FIAs Category A favors streamliners.  The only other FIA world records choice is for production line cars.  
 
 Back to the bikes, . . Also I don't understand why you consider allowing partial streamlining.  Why not elinminate that as well?  I hear the scooter types refer to riding a naked bike which means no streamlining at all.

[ddahlgren]

Possibly the fewer the classes and the fewer the rules the easier to police.
 Number of wheels
 Engine type
 engine size
 supercharged or N/A
 production or special construction
 Job pretty much done
 Innovation just happens to be unlimited within these bounds if not production.

[landracing]

FIM and FIA allow traction control.
 
 Unlimited innovation.... FIA and FIM
 
 
 Jon

[JackD]

The procedures for many FIM items were changed in 1978, largly due to the efforts of the American steward.
 The last complete publication of all the records even those that were retired was in 1989.
 The last FIM event I was chief steward was 1990 with Dave Campos.
 After that the FIM changed again and I was not a part of that.
 If they are lacking something it is by their own hand. The FIA while it is more user friendly, also lack the administrative backup that many are yelling about.
 Unfortunately most of the energy is yelling at each other not the responsible party.

[rosemeyer]

Thanks Malcolm UK for explaining the "disappearance" of some records from the FIM listing. Just like Marcroux, I couldn't understand why some records had vanished from the list. Now it all makes sense! (sort of)
 Thanks also JackD for sending me back to the present FIM list, where in fact, there are 'open' bikes in the top category. It looks like the fastest record for an 'opne' bike is held by a N. Brisset - never heard of him - on a Suzuki Hayabusa Turbo (what else!!) with a speed of 338.224 km/h over the flying kilo or 337.884 kmh for the flying mile. That's about 200mph, which is well short of the speeds achieved by the US 'Top Guns' - Noonan and Bonneville or Guthrie at Maxton. So a FIM record is well within their grasp. Plus there are other guys who could have a go too - Jon Minono once his bike is sorted?
 I hope that the next BUB meet will allow these guys to get what they deserve.

[rosemeyer]

Another anomaly in the FIM record list, or at least a 'liberal' interpretation of their rules.
 I see that in their listing, there are several short distance records established at Nardo, South Italy.
 Article 018.10.1 of the regulations says:
 Tracks for Short Distance Records: A straight course between 2 points...
 Well, Nardo is a CIRCULAR track! Where can they find a straight course there?

[JackD]

I have supervised period record attempts for FIM on a surveyed circle track and the rules are very specific.
 There was a car record that was applied for in the distance of a 1 mile straight. While the measured distance was legal by the definition, the steep banked corners at Talladega allowed a "SLINGSHOT RUN" down hill at the speed traps.
 This was not thought of well with in the speed community.
 I feel the rules for flying kilo and mile should be ammended to say the approach to the record distance should meet the same rules as the measured distance. In other words the kilo should have a flat distance of a kilo approach that requires a vehicle to be under it's own power and the same for the mile.
 If you have a question about the event at Nardo, I suggest you address them (FIM) by letter. I will be interested in the answer.

[PorkPie]

Malcolm explained the most about the FIM records,
 also that some years ago the "frozen" the old record.
 
 But there was some questions and comments I like to clarify.
 
 The last on siter biker who holds the absolute record was Wilhelm Herz in 1956, short before Allens Texas Cigar runs.
 
 He went over 211 mph - which is 339.404 km/h - this is faster then the other shown record.
 
 He used the NSU Dolfin III, a shape similar as Henne's BMW bike. The Bike used a 500 cc engine (with super charger).
 
 Originally the liked to use the Baum II with a 350 cc engine - the bike was unfortunately heavy damaged by Herz in an accident on the beginning from the record attempts. The bike was one of a series lying streamliner, very similar to the today streamliner, which was successful used by NSU since 1951. The Baum II was good for a 230 mph record - the real potential showed his sister bike the Baum IV which took with a 125 cc engine all records up to 250 cc - the speed was around 151 mph - on 125 cc.
 
 But the NSU neither the Texas Cigar was the first lying/inside sitting streamliner. The first one was from the German Koenig-Fachsenfeld,
 designed and build in 1938 - this motorcycle still exist.
 
 Allen and the Texas Cigar never set a FIM record - he didn't pay the fee - did we hear so paying problems before.....
 
 Jack Joerns, former owner/builder of the #233 lakester and member of the midget team #577/#677 from Forth Worth Texas was a Team member of Allen 1956 attempt. You can talk to him, he will be back in August.
 
 Some strange records the FIM certified.
 The first Craig Breedlove record with 407 mph with the Tree Wheeler Spirit of America in 1963 was a FIM record - motorcycle with sidecar....
 
 In 1976, Kitty O'Neil (Hamilton) and the SMI Motivator went in Oregon a average of 512+ mph, also this record was recognized by the FIM -
 I own a copy of the certification - all this records are still best on the frozen list.
 
 The SMI was also a motorcycle with sidecar, this time only with rocket power instead of jet power.
 
 To Nardo, Max Biaggi went there some years ago a record on circle (road course) which was also over 200 mph using a 500 cc bike from the world championship series - only slightly modified.
 
 See ya

[JackD]

There are a number of things in the listings of World Records that are mis-stated and need attention.

[Malcolm UK]

Some of the entries Pork Pie wrote about will have been 'frozen' records that are only listed in the last complete listing.
 
 I have not seen a copy of the Kitty O'Neil certificate and I have been told that the FIM HQ did not ratify any of the rocket three wheel records relating to the SMI Motivator or Budweiser vehicles.  Pork Pie, is this a USA produced certificate that you have, from the timekeeper?
 
 In the configuration as run - single front wheel and two on a common rear axle line, leaving three tracks - these vehicles were considered "cyclecars".
 
 I have a copy of Craig's FIM three wheel record but this class was 'discontinued'.  Indeed the FIM are awaiting someone to apply to run a jet or rocket powered three wheeler, before writing the class construction rules - and the CTI would like to avoid calling them cyclecars too.  
 
 If however you wish you can run a jet or rocket powered two wheeler - you can - thanks to Team Maximum Impulse (Richard Brown) getting the rules amended (in association with the ACU in the UK).  The towing rules for streamliners in the FIM was also restablished thanks to this team.
 
 I thought the Max Biaggi entry had been listed - maybe its been lost in assembling the present listings?  As JackD suggests there are strange matters afoot in even the FIM getting things correct.
 
 Inspite of the wording of the FIM rules Nardo is considered a suitable venue for mile and kilo flying start attempts by them.  There were plans to run a speed week type event there for all classes and record distances & durations.