Poll

Who has the record for the fastest gas sit on bike

1
1 (25%)
2
3 (75%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Author Topic: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle  (Read 15785 times)

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Offline Rick Roberts

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2007, 08:42:37 PM »
Well said Jack...Kaz any pushrod (are there any other kind) Harley over 200 is flying. People like George Smith at S&S or Carl Morrow at Carl's Speed Shop who could make a nitro harley live at Bonneville are awesome tuners, no doubt. Even today, Timbo Wilson's 213.193 record and 217.945 one way pass on the NRHS 1650 pushrod (nitrous not nitro) Buell is flying.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 09:30:14 PM by Rick Roberts »
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Offline MadDuck

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2007, 01:05:53 AM »
Rick,

I'm pretty sure all of Aarons runs above 210mph were done on Nitro.  He'll probably chime in to correct but I know he spent a lot of time and dollars getting that nitro thing figured out.  Don't know how many have records above 200 with both nitrous and nitro.  Thread hijack maybe.  Figuring out gas is hard enough at bonneville. :-o
Fly on RI Rocket #27

aswracing

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2007, 10:13:58 AM »
Rick, thank you for the comments. Madduck is right, we've moved to nitro, hence the increase in speeds.

I played with the nitrous tuning a lot, broke a lot of pistons, found what did and didn't work, with lots of good help from people who had already been down the path. But eventually I convinced myself that I had everything out of it that I knew how to get, making more power with it only broke pistons sooner and I had exhausted my bag of tricks attempting to take it farther.

So we went to nitro this last year. Very much a learning year, and we were conservative on the percentage, but already the bike is significantly faster. There's more, I'm still very much learning the limits of this stuff and what it wants. I don't know if I'll ever get up there where Tramp III was, but we'll work toward it and see what we can do. I want to take baby steps though, do it safely. It'd ruin my day if someone got hurt. Plus I don't want to break more stuff than necessary along the way. We hurt one piston at Bub's, and then broke the crank at WOS. As one of my friends and sponsors put it, when you play with nitro you're petting a mean dog. He's growling at me!

Offline JackD

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2007, 10:30:32 AM »
NITRO is a BIG slow push that is best suited to the HD design.
Nitrous makes things happen faster and likes the UJM style of power.
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Offline Rick Roberts

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2007, 07:13:46 PM »
Sorry Guys I thought you were running nitrous. My mistake. Anyway you have a very fast and good looking bike no matter what fuel you are using. Best of luck this year.
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aswracing

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2007, 09:54:07 PM »
Thanks, Rick, we'll give it our best!

Jack, yup, you're exactly right. It's really a pressure & heat problem. The slow burning fuel likes the long stroke, low rpm motor, keeps the peak pressures under control.

aswracing

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2007, 10:29:03 AM »
A funny thing happened when I was getting the bike ready for Bub's.

I was late, as usual, pulling it all together, because the new fabricated stainless steel fuel tank took longer than expected, then my first shot at the whole fuel system didn't work and I had to rethink the plan, then it took awhile to find a fuel return pump that would hold up to the nitro, etc. By the time I got it all sorted out, I only had a few days left to tune it up before we had to pack up and head to the salt. Keep in mind I had never played with methanol or nitro before at all. I had read everything I could get my hands on, and talked to lots of people, but that's all.

So I finally get the thing on the dyno. I set it up on on straight methanol, using the smallest jet that came with my nitro carb which is still a little too big for straight methanol by my calculations, I tune the thing up, and it's making real good power, better than it ever did on gasoline. All is well. Time to put some nitro to it and see what it'll do.

I make the appropriate jetting and timing changes, mix up some nitro at a safe but significant percentage that should give a 40% or so boost in power, do a nitro pull, and the computer crashes. Damn.

3 hours later, after getting another computer and installing all the software, I'm ready to try again. Everything works, but the damn thing just doesn't make much power. I fiddle with it, get my arms around the jetting and timing, but I'm getting maybe 10% more power than I did with straight methanol. WTF?

The next few days is a mad scramble of trying stuff. I overnighted in a fancy and expensive ignition system. Same thing. I talk with everyone I know, nobody has any ideas. Finally I go back to straight methanol. It's way down on power from where it was when I started. Ah-ha! I run leak down tests, no problem. I pull heads and look around and make measurement. No problems. I check for wet sumping. Everything's perfect. The damn thing just won't make power and I have no idea why.

Finally I get to the last night before I have to leave for the salt. I'm stumped. I finally just say the hell with it, let's put more nitro to it and see what it does. I put as much to it as I think I can get away with given the compression ratio and the jets I have. I do one pull, it makes decent power, still 10% or so BELOW what it used to make on nitrous. I decide to take it to the salt anyway and see what it does and see if I can't learn something.

Well, the bike is fast, noticeably faster than it ever was on nitrous. Once we get the gearing right, with a little tailwind we run 217.9, 10mph faster than we've ever run. We bag a record at 213. Then we try to put just a little more nitro to it and we hurt a piston. We had the thing right on the edge already. Overall a very succcessful event for us, and we definitely learned a lot about the nitro.

I know that there's no freakin' way the bike should've gone that fast on that much power. I rationalize it by telling myself it's a load sensitive fuel and the dyno's not loading it enough to make it work. But in the back of my mind, I don't buy it.

About a month later, I'm tuning a customer's bike, and the SOB just won't make power. It's a combination I'm familiar with, and I knew how much power it should make, but this thing is just WAY down. I run all the checks, everything is fine.

Suddenly a light bulb came on. When the computer had crashed and I replaced it, I reloaded the dyno software. One of the things the installation software asks you is the dyno model. My dyno is a dual-roller kart/atv dyno with a motorcycle kit. What if I had told it I had a motorcycle dyno? Te dyno works by just timing the spin up of the drum. The motorcycle dyno has a smaller, single roller drum. If the software thinks I have a motorcycle dyno, all the readings will come out low!

I reloaded the software, and like magic, the customer's bike was making the power it should.

In the end, it worked out well. If not for the mistake loading the dyno software, I would've come out to the event too conservative on the nitro. The mistake forced me to push it right to the edge, farther than I intended, and I learned that much more as a result.

Now to just get it to the next level. But safety has to come first. This stuff is downright dangerous at higher percentages.

Offline JackD

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2007, 10:57:07 AM »
Way Nitro don't speak no Dyno.
Build it strong enough, run it soft enough, then sneak up on the % for a real ride.
Do you know why the air cooled TF cars run so rich they flame out the pipe ?
What happens if they don't ? :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Sumner

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2007, 11:20:26 AM »
A funny thing happened when I was getting the bike ready for Bub's.

I was late, as usual, pulling it all together, ......... I run all the checks, everything is fine.

Suddenly a light bulb came on. When the computer had crashed and I replaced it, I reloaded the dyno software. One of the things the installation software asks you is the dyno model. My dyno is a dual-roller kart/atv dyno with a motorcycle kit. What if I had told it I had a motorcycle dyno? Te dyno works by just timing the spin up of the drum. The motorcycle dyno has a smaller, single roller drum. If the software thinks I have a motorcycle dyno, all the readings will come out low!

I reloaded the software, and like magic, the customer's bike was making the power it should.............

Great story and a good lesson there for any of us.  Glad it worked out and congrats on the record.

Who's/what kind of dyno are you using??

Thanks,

Sum

Offline Freud

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2007, 12:41:27 PM »
Tuning an engine and making a foto seem to run a similar route. Many times
I learned a lot from my mistakes.
Seems the dyno lesson was like the darkroom.

FREUD
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Offline k.h.

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2007, 11:19:28 PM »
Quote
Now to just get it to the next level. But safety has to come first. This stuff is downright dangerous at higher percentages.

Huh.  I thought the dangerous part was breaking a clique member's record.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice, there is.--Jan L. A. Van de Snepscheut

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2007, 11:26:17 PM »
 Huh.  I thought the dangerous part was breaking a clique member's record.
[/quote]

 If you think there is a clique you are obviously not from CA...  :roll:
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Offline k.h.

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2007, 11:38:35 PM »
Clique was probably a poor choice of words.  I herewith revise it to read "breaking the wrong person's record."  This in reference to the notorious mystery of cause and effect for a rule change to OEM cases only in M and after market cases restricted to A. 

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice, there is.--Jan L. A. Van de Snepscheut

Offline JackD

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2007, 01:23:15 AM »
And just one of the the stupid parts of the Clique and Clack show is the target cases are legal in Production and Modified now with several different HD clone brands on the market. :roll:

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aswracing

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Re: Fastest sit on gas motorcycle
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2007, 12:07:13 PM »
Who's/what kind of dyno are you using??

Dynojet model 168/188. Still running Winpep 6, haven't upgraded to 7.

And just one of the the stupid parts of the Clique and Clack show is the target cases are legal in Production and Modified now with several different HD clone brands on the market. :roll:

Aaaaargh! There goes my blood pressure again! You know what a hot button that issue is for me. Damn that was an expensive rule change. Did not see it coming at all. Costed me a BIG pile of money, because it obsoleted a bike I had built but hadn't even raced yet!

Why the !@#$ can't a sanctioning body PUBLICIZE rule changes they're considering and solicit input and comment? And why the !@#$ can't they give a decent amount of WARNING if they're gonna make a change that obsoletes someone's whole project? What would be so bad about that?