FIA & Louise Ann Noeth Comment Papers

[Malcolm UK]

I have been finding the thread across two pages a problem to follow and did not recall Ken's specific complaint - apologies to him.
 
 I was not 'active' Internationally 13 years ago so do not know thwe details, but the oldest set of FIA regulations that I can find in the files reads as follows:
 
 "Art 234 - Certificates and medals.  On the proposal of an ASN, the FIA may grant official certificates or medals to the drivers having established or broken (records) during the year.  The granting of these certificates or medals will be subject to separate regulations."
 
 So ACCUS/FIA as the ASN (the French love their bacwards acronyms) should have made the request for Ken as he set his record in the USA.  You will see that even then the FIA throws in a 'may'.
 
 Unlike the SCTA/BNI, or other racing organisations, where production of certificates automatically; with the FIA it relies upon the representative body within the country concerned starting the process.
 
 So perhaps it was American official failing to support the racer in question and maybe not the central organisation in Paris getting it wrong?

[ddahlgren]

Malcolm there are a lot of things we agree on but 'just their slowness or lack of record keeping accuracy' is a large part of the problem  by itself. It does send a message of indiference to a group of people that view that money spent should have value.
 
 If you cut to the chase, indifference and poor record keeping sends a message that is not too good, more of contempt or lack of concern. This makes those invloved feel slighted and I think rightly so. Those people raise a little stink with FIA which further puts them off and the cycle continues and no one wins.
 
 Everyone I know in the USA wants people that are involved and consider what we do important and worthy of their time, not a sideline interest. I suspect this is the real reason for a lot of people wanting to dismiss FIA in lieu of a group that takes LSR seriosly and makes it their most important issue.
 
 LSR will never pay the FIA the same amount of money that F1 and others might. If this is their problem FIA should divest themselves of the burden.  Is SCTA the right pick maybe and maybe not.  But some organization that takes it all very serious and has some experience might be the right one. That organization needs to step up and be heard whom ever they are.
 
 Dave

[rosemeyer]

Correct: as far as I understand, the SCTA/BNI will only sanction record attempts at their venues (cloning the FIA rules to keep credibility) and as far as I can see don't want to be officiating at any other place. By "taking over the administration of world record attempts" they probably mean at their venues.
 Basically, while they will recognise FIA records, they won't have nothing to do with FIA, and will develop their own list. For them, it has been a headache to work with the FIA and they had to respond to their members views. Mentioning FIA around Bonneville pits can raise a few smiles or long horror stories!!
 What others want to do if they choose not to run at Bonneville is their business. Probably like in the past, arrange their attempt with a national FIA affiliated club and go through the whole process on their own: the survey of the course, the timing equipment, provide staff, medical cover, etc... and of course 'invite' a FIA official at great expense. They could find a place in some deserts, or an yet untaped new location, or go to Lake Gairdner, or some remote place in Mongolia, or try on an airfield, or a stretch of closed road, it would be for them to decide. They would have to hire locals to prepare the course, organise the logistics, transport all the equpment, find a surveyor, time-keepers, medical staff, etc... (Noble has done that twice for his jet records, at huge expense)
 They could do all that or they could do their figures and decide that it makes sense after all to come to Bonneville where everything will be ready and run under SCTA/BNI sanction! Weather conditions apart, they are guaranted to run with an experienced organisation among people who know about record attempts. Bonneville is still good for at least 500+ mph, and there are not many speed record contenders that we know who aim higher at the moment.

[Clay Taylor]

All - This topic now seems to be heading in a more positive direction, now that everybody seems to recognize that a problem exists and something needs to be done about it.  
 
 Please note - dealing with Europeans is a very tough thing for Americans to successfully do. I know - the company I work for is owned by a European manufacturer.   They do business with us in OUR language, but their thought processes are structured by THEIR cultural framework (see the comment about backwards acronyms).   Up to now, during this thread we have simply been hooligans standing on their front lawn, shouting rude comments, and occasionally throwing eggs at their house.  Now we have to figure out how to get into their sitting room, have a friendly drink, and deal with the problem in a civilized way (their version of "civilized", of course).
 
 Step one - establish a LSR group affiliation within ACCUS.   If the FIA will only let ACCUS into the house, there needs to be an LSR group that serves the same function as NHRA does for drag racers, etc.   While SCTA is the logical choice, they might not want to make that a part of their operating agenda (might not fit into their articles of incorporation / tax status / etc., etc.).   Does the ACCUS member organization have to be a non-profit group, a for-profit group, or does it even matter?    If the SCTA passes on being the ACCUS representative for LSR in North America, can a group be formed to take on that role - perhaps a committee comprising all of the NA LSR organizations (is that what the LSA was for?  If so, why did it fail?)
 
 Once LSR is represented in ACCUS, then it can take up its grievences with the FIA through internal channels.   Taking a cynical look at the whole situation, I would not be surprised if the FIA would gladly let US do all the work as long as they get the Glory (recognition as the overall sanctioning body) AND the Money (fees collected from record attempts, affiliations, etc.)   At that point, as long as the racers are getting the recognition they are due, who cares
 what organization name is at the top of the certificate?
 
 Clay Taylor

[D-Type]

Today I had a look at the FIA website and their table of records.  What a complete and utter shambles!
 
 They are officially THE International body charged with the resposibility of administering the world records scene.  But the listings appear to have been posted by someone who had no idea what it was about and without having been checked.  The politest thing I can say is that they look downright amateur and the sort of thing I would expect from a small town VW club.  Basically a complete shambles.
 
 I can now fully understand the frustration of serious American land racers (is that the correct term?) with what appears to be a bunch of useless (foreign) amateurs.
 
 There are two choices:
 (1)  Ignore the traditional International body and set up your own.  
 (2)  Reform the FIA democratically.
 
 Option (1) can only have one result.  Fragmentation weakens everyone.  Look at boxing with its different boards of control and three "World champions" at each weight.  Closer to home, look at US single-seater racing.  The AAA handed over control to USAC, CART broke away and initially ran a very successful championship.  Then came the IRL split and we now have a joke series.  Or is it several series now?  I've totaally lost interest. Indianapolis, which used to be the World's greatest motor race, with innovations every year is reduced to a one-chassis/one engine stagnation.
 
 The FIA is the (almost) democratically elected World governing body.  Although its HQ is in France it doesn't make it French or European any more than the UN HQ being in New York makes the UN an American organisation.  The FIA is an association of national motor clubs, or if you prefer, national motor sporting associations.  It gains its authority because the national clubs recognise it.  The FIA belongs to the national associations such as the ACF, ACI, ADAC, RAC, USACC etc - not the other way round.  Similarly the national clubs  belong to the competitors - not the other way round.  Soccer has a similar organisation - FIFA - as do all internationally played sports.  But not primarily American sports like Baseball, US Football, Ice Hockey, and Basketball which are all struggling to expand worldwide.
 
 The only way forward is to push for a reform of the FIA from within by putting pressure on through the national organisations.  By all means threaten secession but for heavens sake pull back from the brink before it's too late.  Unless you want your National speed week to be just that - a curiosity like the 'Soapbox Derby' or the 'Pig and Ford' race of interest to the participants onl;y and ignored by the general public (and sponsors!).
 
 I hope my English English has not upset the rednecks too much!  

[ddahlgren]

D-type that is an interesting point that i was not aware of, the fact that the FIA exists at the pleasure of the national clubs. It would seem SCTA/BNI would only have to join that roster. A competitor at that point would only have to state if they were running for an FIA record or SCTA record or both for that matter as long as the vehicle met the requirements for both. The FIA rules for cars other than production seem to be pretty loose from the way i read them. If there is a separate entry fee to run for either record that should not be an issue either.
 It does beg the question though what purpose ACCUS serves, they just seem like a middle manager that does not add to the package other than to possible collect fees. One could argue that they are a dissinterested 3'd party to make sure things are run correctly and while that idea may apply while on 'private time' it also suggests that SCTA/BNI are not a disinterested 3'd party and has it's own motives or agenda for it's memebers to set records. In essence they are being treated by the need to have ACCUS as though they are an individual team on private time when they re really a sactioning body keeping tabs on all the competitors. If i set an FIA reord at a drag race who cerifies the paperwork and checks for legality? FIA or NHRA? I can not picture an FIA official at every NHRA race but maybe i am out of touch as others have suggested at times. I would have to further assume funding for FIA comes from the member clubs, which of course begs the next question what does it cost to be a memeber and what are the benifits of being a memeber?
 here is a scenario..
 If it cost, just for the sake of throwing a number out, $10,000 a year to be a member of FIA and be able to do all the certification for an FIA record as far as the course,procedures,vehicle legality etc., and you had 20 record attempts in a year that is 500 a pop. or another way might be to have FIA have some reasonable filing fee from a sactioned club for a record, let the SCTA get some money for doing the the work and FIA get a reasonable amount for the entry of the record.
 
 Another thought is this. Why not have SCTA/BNI/ECTA/BUBS/Texas mile form a group that represents North America LSR racing and be affiliated with FIA with full rights to observe and certify compliance to FIA regs.. Let ACCUSS do whatever the do with the rest of the venues as one group can not really be everything for everyone all the time. It all come sdown to what it costs to be affiliated with FIA i suppose.
 
 Ok so now where is the spell checker on this thing..LOL
 Dave

[dwarner]

When we were starting the LSA, FIA was not interested in a small natiopnal club joining. Wally Parks attempted to include the SCTA in with NHRA through their ACCUS membership. NHRA then wanted to own LSR. LSA died an unmourned death and the body went to Jack Dolan. Jack can become the be all/end all for LSR all over the World. Approach Jack with all the grand ideas of combining all LSR attempts under one umbrella. Jack has FIM creditals, picking up FIA should be no problem.

[JackD]

"Because I have conducted both FIA and FIM events outside of SCTA means that it can be done.
 The mission of an organization would best serve the sport if they stuck to that program and not confuse the issue by suggesting something that they are not.
 I happen to pay pretty close attention and have formed opinions based on that.
 I would hope that the various expressions don't mask intensions and the clubs really represent the wishes of their members.
 For every story used to make a point, there is a rest of the story that will explain it."
 
  <small>[ February 04, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: JackD ]</small>

[k.h.]

A few years ago there was groundwork done on a "Short Course" LSR authority to cover Maxton/Goliad airstrip type formats both here and abroad, with involvement of both American and British interests.  Is the Land Speed Authority worth resurrecting to cover those mile/kilo venues both here and abroad?

[D-Type]

Don't forget that ACCUS is the body that correlates (I hope that's not too long a word) the views of the various US authorities governing different facets of US motor sport.  And ACCUS is one of the national bodies that are the constituent (sorry another 4 syllable word) members of the FIA and its sub-committee.  The FIA is a world body that, unlike the UN, has its headquarters in Paris and not in New York; it is not a European body; including South America there are probably more American than European affiliated national clubs.
 
 I would have thought that anybody with even the scantest knowledge of US history would realise that secession is not the way to go.  Usurping (there isn't any other word for it) the powers of the International accreditation (sorry! another 4-syllable word) can only lead to anarchy.
 
 The only answer is to present a well-reasoned argument to the 'blazers' that run the national organisations in a form that they can put forward.  Use the criterion: Is this something the delegate from the PRC will support?  If you can get the backing of major sponsors (Oil companies, tobacco, motor manufacturers, Coca Cola) so much the better.

[Malcolm UK]

Without moving from the topic too far - can Dan Warner & JackD in particular but anyone else who knows tell me - what was the LSA, who joined it and what were the operating rules for its records.  
 
 I saw reference on the Fueling site to LSA speed records but have no other information to work with to express any opinion.  
 
 And before anyone gets to upset about a Brit commenting on things American, its because KT has mentioned LSA and World Short Course Records in the one mailing - and on the latter plan I have contributed before.

[Malcolm UK]

To answer Dave - I do believe he and I agree on many things, most particularly elements out of our love of LSR, amongst other forms of motorsport we have been or are involved with ... him more than me now.  (I used to be involved in UK National circuit racing working for a team, as well as competing in what we call speed events (similar to Pro Solo).
 
 The FIA Governing Council would be unlikley to permit ACCUS/FIA to be removed from their role of National Sporting Authority.  Only one ASN is allowed in each member country.
 
 I could see the LSR organisations of the USA forming an autonomous group under the ACCUS/FIA organisation, to be the LSR Authority - although I know only to well that USAC is the favoured organisation to fulfill that role.  And the SCCA do take on the FIA LSR duties too.
 
 Both USAC and SCCA have other major motor sport interests, so perhaps they would 'yield' to a more active group in mile and kilo LSR?  As you will see from the list of records there are many (US) attempts on other records (mostly endurance) which USAC in particular take on with car makers etc. and earn good dollars.
 
 I remain concerned that SCTA/BNI would not appear to have any interest in being the Authority at other venues within the USA for Private Speed ventures on mile and kilo.  If SCTA/BNI are the US based mile and kilo Authority they would need to be prepared to work with those who choose another venue in the USA. I cannot speak for Richard Noble (who used USAC but not SCCA) but I would always pay the most appropriate  organisation to be present at an FIA (or FIM) attempt I organise.  What about SCTA trained/tutored personnel around the remainder of the world?  Money earning opportunity perhaps?  
 
 By the way there would not be any insurance issues preventing SCTA timing jets or rockets, because the FIA rules (Appendix D) and ASN Rules require full insurance indemnity from the competitor - protecting a whole raft of named bodies and sometimes individuals.
 
 Just some minor 'tweaks' to the LAN paper and the SCTA/BNI making their way through the US Motorsport Politics (not easy I would guess) and it could happen that we have a responsive World Authority for kilo and mile, flying start, World Land Speed Records for cars.