FIA & Louise Ann Noeth Comment Papers

[JackD]

YO DOG, at least we be haven our own language.
 OUT

[Malcolm UK]

Hey guys, I thought abusing each other over the english language was meant to involve the Brits and Americans - youre hogging it all to yourselves.  Guinness is an Irish drink but Guinness Publishing was very much an English matter - Ross and Norris McWhirter were as British as they came.
 
 I will drink any Americans Scotch if it is offered.
 
 Just to get back to the subject - on other threads there is a 'short course' route that might be the start of harmonisation between various countries.  And this would involve American Racers.

[JackD]

Drag racing was established at a 1/4 mile in the 50s because of the available space left over from many WW 2 training bases.
 Maxton and Gonad are an example of that.
 Just like the physical limitations they are finding now. drag racing distances were established based on their ability to stop.
 The standard is that twice the stopping distance is required for a 1/4 mile. A standard drag strip should be 3/4 miles long. At that they are getting in trouble with the fastest cars and are considering cutting back to 1,000 feet.
 Half of the active drag strips in the US are 1/8 mile for various reasons that include available space.
 The best racing for records is going to be with the proper sanction and be configured so that World Records are challanged with the same standards World wide.
 The application has to be user friendly, Right now the various groups all feel they are the best for all their different reasons and really confuse the issue.
 Terminal speed at the end of a measured distance has imprved it't accuracy as the electronice have improved.
 Maxton and Gonad (I spelled it that way so you would read it more carefully) give you 3 speeds (entry and exit) over 132feet for tuning aid but score the event over the 132feet.
 They did not always do it that way, but when they were shown the advntages they stepped up and did it.
 The ability to stop might have reached it's limit over a mile and perhaps it is time to settle on a kilo.
 It sounds bad to cut back, but the racers will soon figure it out and go faster anyway.
 You don't want the stop to be more risk than the run and the event should fit the available space.
 Simple is better and safe is best.

[LittleLiner]

Scott
 In October I was standing at short shutdown and observed most of the 250+ mph runs that Lee ran on the Yancey bike on Saturday.  Generally he was able to stop about 200 to 300 feet past short shutdown, make a slow u turn and come back to short shutdown and exit there.  Would the extra 10% speed (270 to 280) have that much effect that long shutdown would be too short to get safely stopped?
 
 Art

[rosemeyer]

Regarding the 1st thread of this topic, am I the only one who completely support the SCTA/BNI in their 'divorce' from the FIA?
 The FIA, who needs it? Who are they? What do they do for land speed racers?
 For motorsport observers at large, they are a real nuisance that only interfer with competitors, ruins good competition and pocket the money in the process.
 I am not surprised of the SCTA/BNI move, and think it was long overdue, 'Landspeed Louise' is absolutely right in saying that.
 As far as I can see, the majority of land speed racers are from America and the majority of land speed records are set in America; why do their organising club have to 'kowtow' to the whims of this European body who doesn't do a thing about land speed racing, barely acknowledges it and treats its audience with contempt?
 Apart from a few record attempts generated from Europe (I know, Campbell, Cobb, Noble, Green and co) for over half a century  now, the USA have a supremacy in land speed racing and record breaking (in outright speed that is, not acceleration or endurance records)and have created a brand of motorsport which is without rival worldwide (SpeedWeek, World of Speed, World Finals, Muroc, El Mirage, Maxton Mile, etc...).Why do they need to be 'controled' by a 'governing body' sitting in far away France is a mystery to me.
 Look at other apects of motorsports in the USA: George launched the IRL, Bill France created NASCAR, drag racing was the product of the NHRA, all of them successful and thriving. Do they need the FIA to tell them what to do? Like Hell!!
 Let's be frank and honest about it: the FIA is an European 'thing' that pretends to be impartial and administer motorsports worldwide. It only got that power because it hasn't been challenged. There is not such thing as a monopoly, only people who accept it!
 Maybe land racers in the States don't realise it because they are only interested in their form of sport, but the FIA is growing more and more to be against organisers and competitors.
 -In the 90s, they fiddled with the World Sportcars Championship and nearly ruined it: instead of 60 entries, Le Mans received only 29! Competitors walked away because of arbitrary and constant changes of rules. Le Mans had to come out of their jurisdiction to get a proper field the following year. Many entrants went bankrupt or pulled out.
 - In the last 5 years, they have completely destroyed the World Rally Championship by constant changes of rules, homologations, type of cars, limitation in mileage, etc...The Monte Carlo Rally (the premier rally in the world)is now a shadow of itself. If you don't believe me look at the figures: 1982, 351 cars - 2527 miles, 2005, 34 cars - 850 miles. Next thing, they would have you watch a World Rally as a shoot-out between 2 cars in a stadium!! 2 majors manufacturers are pulling out: Peugeot and Citroen; Mitsubishi may be following and Ford send signals to the same effect.
 -Formula 1, or Grand Prix as we used to call it has been the object of all their attention, because it's big bucks. But they messed that up too!! 1990, 36 cars entered, 2005, barely 18!!
 They keep changing rules, upsetting people who have invested in the sport and move the goalpost at every occasion. Ford stopped participating, Mercedes and BMW may follow.
 I had to divert and explain this to show the absolute incompetance of the FIA.
 Are they people you can trust to look after your interests? No!!
 So, at Bonneville and in the US, you have a marvellous tradition of speed and hot-rod, you are blessed with one of the best venue in the world and you have clubs that organises events very well. Keep it that way and keep the enthusiasts happy.
 Re. the 2-way runs within 60 mins; if you have to change the 'rules' to satisfy YOUR competitors or because of track conditions, just do it!! It's about the only bit of regulations the FIA still holds on to, having ignored all the rest.
 
 Good Luck to all the competitors in 2005.

[JackD]

Club level events produce club level results.
 IRL. NASCAR,NHRA and others are members of ACCUS and  FIA.
 World records and their procedures don't change with the wind, if they do, the previous records would have to be retired.
 Somebody thinks the effort is worth it.
 That might be a good project for the Speed Record Club.
 They might research the fee schedule and the preparation checklist in a simplified format and report back.

[LittleLiner]

I think we are making this harder than it has to be.  What is needed is a way for the predominate orgainzations in the USA and maybe also the DLRA down under to band together to acknoledge each others best performance for cars that are comparable to the FIA Category A cars but are structured around our class sizes and are limited to Flying Miles (and KM) and Standing Mile and KM (terminal speed) racing.  Here is a set of draft rules.  Like I say - it's a draft.  Feel free to copy , add, change delete etc.
 
 Short Course Land Speed Racing
 
 ?World Record? Racing
 
 There are four (4) records that may be established for each Engine Type/ Engine Size Class combination.
 1 ? Standing Start (terminal speed thru 132 foot trap) kilometer
 2 ? Standing Start (terminal speed thru 132 foot trap) mile
 3 ? Flying Start kilometer (over the same kilometer)
 4 ? Flying Start mile.(over the same mile)
 
 Sanctioning Organizations are responsible for determining which (if any) of the four record types will be available to competitors.
 
 Records will be established based on the average of the two fastest attempts by a vehicle during any event.  Two way runs are not required.  The time between runs is at the option of the event officials.
 
 Other items to be included in the general rules would be:
 ?   Maximum wind conditions,
 ?   Impound procedures
 ?   Authentication of the record by the event?s chief timer or other appropriate event official.
 
 Category U:  Based on USA and Australian-style Wheel Driven Special Construction Automobiles.  Defined as any vehicle that is wheel driven.  Must have at least 4 wheels (aligned or not aligned).  At least two wheels steering.  Must meet the safety standards set forth by the organization sanctioning the event.  Complete or partial propulsion by any means other than driven wheel(s) is prohibited (e.g. thrust, rocket, jet, sails or propellers are not allowed.)
 
 Currently approved organizations include SCTA-BNI, USFRA, ECTA, DLRA, Texas Mile and BUB.  Approved venues include Bonneville, El Mirage, Maxton, Mile, Texas Mile, and Lake Gairnder.
 
 Vehicle Weight ? optional (but retain the three levels of weight for electric, turbine and steam)
 Vehicle Streamlining ? optional
 Fuel ? optional (within safety regulations of sanctioning organization)
 
 Engine Types: (Same as FIA)
 I ? Supercharged Otto Cycle (2 or 4 stroke)
 II- Non-supercharged Otto Cycle (2 or 4 stroke)
 III ? Supercharged Compression Ignition (Diesel) (2 or 4 Stroke)
 IV ? Non-supercharged Compression Ignition (Diesel) (2 or 4 Stroke)
 V - Supercharged Rotary
 VI  ? Non-supercharged Rotary
 (note here that electric, turbine, hybrid, steam etc should also be included)
 
 Engine Size Classes  - Same as ECTA (includes SCTA and DLRA classes plus class L)
 AA   -501 cid and over   (8.21 liters and over)
 A   - 440 thru 500 cid   (7.21 to 8.19 L)
 B   -373 thru 439 cid   (6.11 to 7.19 L)
 C   -306 thru 372 cid   (5.01 to 6.10 L)
 D   -261 thru 305 cid   (4.27 to 5.00 L)
 E   -184 thru 260 cid   (3.01 to 4.26 L)
 F   -123 thru 183 cid   (2.01 to 3.00 L)
 G   -93 thru 122 cid   (1.51 to 2.00 L)
 H   -62 thru 92 cid      (1.01 to 1.50 L)
 I   -46 thru 61 cid      (0.76 to 1.00 L)
 J   -31 thru 45 cid      (0.51 to 0.75 L)
 K   -16 thru 30 cid      (0.26 to 0.50 L)
 L    -15 cid and under        (0.00 to 0.25 L)

[Malcolm UK]

The short course world records discussed were intended to be for those tracks of say 2 miles total length.  In particular on concrete or pavement.  Timing as Maxton & Goliad in 132 feet trap.
 
 The bringing together of the classes at Bonneville and Lake Gairdner to arrive at the fastest SCTA/BNI-USFRA -DLRA records would only be worthwhile if the rule books were in the same year.  Timing down under means that their 2005 event is equal to Bonnevilles 2004.  May not be a problem to the racers if the 'governing body' accepts that March '05 is equal to  August / September / October '04.  
 
 As these rules eliminate by definition other tracks and other racers then it is hardly 'world wide' speed records of the FIA type that the SCTA/BNI International rules are meant to be.

[Malcolm UK]

In the contribution from 'Rosemeyer', who I see is from the UK too, there is the continuing error that US land speed racing, in the widest sense, is the same as setting an FIA International or World Land Speed Record under FIA regulations Appendix D anywhere in the world on any suitable surveyed track and surface.  
 
 Whichever side or group is supported there seemed to be a general consensus that the operating rules for International or World Records under SCTA/BNI should be exactly the same as FIA.  The only change would be that the official observing that all the operating rules are complied with would be SCTA certified in some way.  But it appears that the SCTA Board may not want this role except at Bonneville, if at all now.
 
 As to using the example of how FIA championships have changed over the years do not forget the US equivalent of CART versus IRL (and perhaps NHRA versus the rest of the Hot Rod Groups?)
 
 The racing groups NHRA, IRL, IMSA etc in the USA are all still affiliated to the FIA through ACCUS.  NASCAR is the exception at this high level.  
 
 The FIA do not get to grips with 'runing' Formula 1 in the sense that they alone set the rules - their is a Concorde Agreement of all participants and races take place with the help of a Commercial Rights Holder.  For event spectators F1 may not be succesful with 18/20 cars instead of 24, but I suggest that to the business brains involved they are not the major target customer group - so do not rate high on any priority list.  The sponsors and businesses in and around pit lane & Paddock Club are the ones that count, along with the track advertising and TV rights.  When countries stop showing F1 programmes it will change.  As to Ford (Jaguar)pulling out and other teams going bankrupt I would suggest other reasons than the rule changes.

[JackD]

The title of the organization pretty much describes the mission / intent.
 The quality and quantity are variable with interest and activity.
 Fix what you have to match what you want.
 Don't date out of your species.
 
  <small>[ February 01, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: JackD ]</small>

[rosemeyer]

In reply to the last posting from Malcolm UK, no, there is no confusion from my part between US based land speed racing and FIA records held under their rules. In fact, many FIA records have been attempted at Bonneville following a SCTA speed trial meeting, and this under the FIA rules and sanctions.
 The SCTA had often allocated time at the end of a speed meeting for such FIA attempts.
 I understand that the SCTA/BNI doesn't intend to usurp the FIA, but to run some records attempts at Bonneville (following accepted FIA rules and regulations) and recognise these records outside the FIA jurisdiction.
 Years of incompetence from the FIA and groans and moans from their members forced this decision. This has been well documented over the years (see LAN's article), but never corrected. The SCTA doesn't want to replace the FIA or operate outside its traditional events: Bonneville, Muroc, El Mirage.
 For other speed record attempts, held in other locations, contenders will have to arrange their own organisation and recognition from the FIA (like Noble at Black Rock, etc...). Jet and rockets vehicles are banned from SCTA meeting on safety ground mostly: their speeds and stopping distances have overtaken the capability of the Salt Flats.
 In other words, the SCTA wants to protect its successful members, where the FIA ignore them.
 The expression "two-bit criminals" from LAN is maybe strong, but what do you call somebody who promise to provide you with a service, forces you to comply to some rules, pocket your money and then don't deliver his side of the bargain? In general business terms, it's fraud, isn't it?
 To many land speed racing enthusiasts, the SCTA/BNI have a very strong argument.
 The problem may be that for the FIA, speed records attempts are not a priority and don't deserve their time and attention. As I said previously, their attention seems devoted exclusively to the jewels in the crown: F1 and WRC.
 Maybe because of geographic parameters, US motorsport in general doesn't comform to the European ethos of the FIA. IRL, Champcar, etc... are, I am told, affiliated to the FIA, but are left at their own devices. Thanks God for that!
 My argument in supporting the SCTA decision is that they are (together with USFRA, DLRA, etc...)the only organisation to organise regularly speed events, records attempts; the only body who is answerable to its members.
 SCTA meeting have more high speed runs than any other organisations in the world, the most competitors, etc, etc... Just during SpeedWeek, more than 180 records of all kinds were broken. Where does that leave the FIA? Nowhere!
 How many International or World Speed Record have been broken in 2004 outside Bonneville? In 2003? 2002? I raised my case....

[JackD]

You fail to mention all the FIA records set during the Speedweek event and not at the end to make your point and rested your case.
 Would you like to start with the 400+mph cars?
 Remember you have to consider the thousands of track record classes. TheY deserve a place also.
 When AL set his record during Speedweek that was also FIA certified, the cost was born by 2 guys with no relation to each other or Al either.
 Those guys are known to only a few people and theirs was a contribution to the sport.

[Malcolm UK]

Maybe 'Rosemeyer' I did not read the words attributed by LAN to a SCTA/BNI Board member - "We don't expect any problems at all in taking over the administration over world record attempts".
 
 To me that is stating that the SCTA/BNI would wish to remove the control from the FIA - usurping seems to fit.  (I note that they - the SCTA/BNI have not taken on the FIM yet on behalf of their motorcycle entrants!)
 
 Then we read that the attempts under the BNI International rules at Bonneville will be the same as the FIA (two way, 60 minutes) but - and it is a big BUT - the SCTA/BNI will just be timing flying mile and flying kilo distances; they will prepare a longer course if entries demand;  Bonneville would be the only track used; World Finals the only event; & thrust powered vehicles are excluded from any such meetings.
 
 As the SCTA/BNI have never indicated a desire to time and officiate at attempts elsewhere in the USA or at other venues around the world - what are the rest of the world to do?
 
 It should never be thought that I am 'against' or 'anti' the racing organisations in the USA (I hope I remain friends with the many US racing folk who have helped me since 1998, whther SCTA, USFRA or ECTA).  I just want/wanted to know what my UK clients would get from the SCTA/BNI "taking over the administration over world record attempts".
 
 To date, no one in an official position on the SCTA/BNI Board has said anything on the subject other than to LAN.
 
 ps.  What is the proof that the FIA has failed to deliver the service paid for by a racer.  Isn't it just their slowness and lack of record keeping accuracy that LAN has taken issue with?

[dwarner]

ps. What is the proof that the FIA has failed to deliver the service paid for by a racer. Isn't it just their slowness and lack of record keeping accuracy that LAN has taken issue with?
 *****************8
 See the third post on the other FIA thread. Ken Walkey states that his record cert was 13 years in coming and it took the intervention of Wally Parks to get that accomplished.
 
 That is enough proof for me!

[JackD]

Originally posted by Dan Warner:
 [QB] ps. What is the proof that the FIA has failed to deliver the service paid for by a racer. Isn't it just their slowness and lack of record keeping accuracy that LAN has taken issue with?
 *****************8
 See the third post on the other FIA thread. Ken Walkey states that his record cert was 13 years in coming and it took the intervention of Wally Parks to get that accomplished.
 
 "Wally Parks and the NHRA were the contracting agency and were responsible to start with for the completion of the paperwork.
 The FIA will respond to the appropriate action within the rules as required.
 For many years, Carl Olson (200 club and NHRA) was the president of the FIA commision on drag racing. I bet he was not aware of the problem and nobody asked.
 As rare and as small as the attempts are, they should be really easy to watch.
 Crying and stamping your feet will rarely get you more than a diaper check and a bottle.
 If you conduct an event you should also make the rules for that event and don't say you are something you are not.
 Don't date out of your species"