Motorcycles - Ballast Rules

[RODaly]

As part of the rules consideration for the 2006 season (not this year, next year) we are considering if we should continue to allow ballast to be placed on the swing arm (unsprung).  If the rule is changed, ballast would be required to be attached to the main frame body (sprung), forward of the rear axle.
 
 I would like to hear the everyone's opinion.
 
 For public comments, please post them here at landracing.com.  For private communication, you can reach me at lsrmctech@adelphia.net.
 
  <small>[ January 14, 2005, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: JonAmo ]</small>

[landracing]

First I hope that everyone will post here and not just email, I think it is healthy to hear all the arguments good and bad here.
 
 My thoughts on the ballast question is why? Why would such a rule change need changing?
 
 Also by limited where you place the ballast is always a question or answer for the bike builder.  If they need to move CG's around or need proper placement of weight let them put it where they want it. We are already limited on the bikes as it is for where to put weight.
 
 Rule of thumb has always said put the weight in the middle as low as you can get it, well guess what we had handleing problems. But we were free to put it where we wanted it that is important.
 
 Please dont keep taking away our ability to setup a bike where is feels safe and rides safe for us.
 
 Please give us a little more information on why would you not allow it, why is this up for debate. I got a feeling it leads to a tire issue.
 
 
 Jonthan
 
  <small>[ January 14, 2005, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: JonAmo ]</small>

[JackD]

Secured ballast should have an appropriate rule that is enforeable.
 Stay out of the suspension science business.
 If you replace the shocks with struts is it still a swing arm ?
 If you fill the swingarm with lead shot, who is going to know ? Perhaps if you required them to be removed and weighed during inspection.
 What if a bike has a 400 lb, shaped rear fender ?

[Freud]

If it's inside of the swing arm and you can't see it, is it still there? Rather like a tree falling in the forest and not heard. Did it really fall?
 
 Jack hit the official on the head. Who's going to know and who's going to weigh the swing arm to find out? At least if it's inside the swing arm it's secure and that more than in many instances.
 
 Cut the rider some slack. If he needs weight let him use it as long as it is secure.
 
 GrandPa Freud

[JackD]

Added lead contributes to tire failure if nothing else than it allows more HP to be applied. That is a big reason they are going faster. Some teams are figuring how to go faster with less HP than is available and more weight than might a good idea.
 A 500lb swingarm will really grip the track at Daytona, but you will fall off when you get to a corner. Some classes of Drag bikes require the bike and rider secure lead aboard to equalize performance.
 As you suspect, Bonneville is not the same.
 Some of the rules have gone their own direction for good and bad reasons.
 If a performance was allowed and you then make a rule to prohibit that practice, that speed may be locked in forever.
 Safety should be the main driver and should be well thought out so everybody together reaches the same conclusion you may already have. The future of the sport depends on it and the participation of the tire people depends on it.
 Stuff falling off a bike and getting run over can fail a tire at any speed, even pushing it around.
 If a rule is not enforcable it is worse than no rule at all. It would be safer if tech could be sure your motor won't fail and make you fall off.
 But some things require a face plant to drive the point home. I guess ya gotta hope it is not yours.
 It's a tough job for sure.
  You would think everybody running in the same direction would be perfected by now.
 " Can't we just all get along faster ?"

[Larry Forstall]

I think secure ballast should be allowed anywhere as long as it doesn't affect the integrity of the mounting location. Improper weight distribution will make itself known (i.e. 300lbs. over the taillight).The fast bikes are all carefully thought out. We all have filled swingarms(there I said it)and added weight as turbos create so much torque that traction is limited. Didn't Sam Wheeler raise his tire pressure to over 100 lbs. to help prevent cord flex? I think a little extra air in the tires would solve the added weight concerns.
      I built a complete bike to avoid the stock frame issues. Perhaps this year Steve will prove my theories.   LSL

[JackD]

The rules for CG ang CP are hard and fast.
 Violate them and hard and fast will also apply to you but different.

[landracing]

Bottom line is lets just enforce a good rule on "Secure Mounting" and less attention on where it is located.
 
 Freedom of innovation is good, taking away the freedom could possibly detour future participants. I have heard it a million times we are not NASCAR because we are amateurs, well lets not get into pissing matches on small little rules which we still dont know the reason behind. If we keep up we will be just like NASCAR.
 
 CG and CP are sometimes hard fought battles but isnt that part of the Bonneville Experience figuring out what works for you and your setup. Pretty soon we will have a bunch of cookie cutter bikes.
 
 NOt bitching just trying to keep my freedom that all.
 
 Jonathan

[JackD]

Soooooo, my idea to rent Lambrettas is dead ?
 What am I going to do with them ?
 Do you think Freud will give me my money back ?
 
 Just when NHRA Pro Stock Bikes were generating so much money.
 
  <small>[ January 16, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: JackD ]</small>

[ddahlgren]

"If a rule is not enforcable it is worse than no rule at all. "
 
 Truer words have never been said too bad it does not apply universally in SCTA thoughts..
 Dave

[JackD]

Freedom of expression includes aluminun chain guards next to lead weights.
 Sometimes just when I think I get it, I think I don't.
 Sometimes I am convinced but I ask anyway just to see if you are.

[Stainless Two]

my 2 cents:
 
 unsecured bags of shot and other weight is obviously irresponsible.   The weight trapped in swingarms, and bolted on ingots are certainly secured.
 
 Decisions about center of gravity should be left to the chassis designer and rider, unless demonstratably unsafe.
 
 Tires are going to be self limiting in the weight that they allow under different HP loads, loading, heat, etc.  
 
 Trying to dictate weight limits will truly "limit" even the safe advancement carefully made by racers responsibly pursuing the limits of their sport, and hinder future development.  If the most efficicient race chassis ends up being a heavier one, why stop it, if it is not proven to be unstable?
 
 Top speed is its own reward.

[Stainless Two]

and who melts plastic bags on their motor?...lol

[bbb]

this is the kind of information I came to this discussion board for.
 thank you for the thoughts and ideas.
 
 now where are my burlap sacks and bird shot?

[Hank]

If you forget to take off weight,securely added,depending on salt conditions,it can be a public display of how less is better,and why extra underwear is a must.