300+ MPH Bikes and Cars.....

[desotoman]

I guess we are just dug into opposite positions on this .

Sum,
   I respect your opinion and I really don't think we are at opposite ends on this topic. I feel there are solutions for everything, in which every racer will benifit. I am as big a fan of the fast cars as anyone else. I don't want to see this turned into an NHRA circus though.
   I don't like the idea of cars pulling to the side at the front of the starting line to be worked on. I feel this will cause more conjestion and confusion in a spot were we really don't need that to happen.
   I do like the idea of a lottery system for starting. When I used to race motorcycles many, many years ago, we were assigned starting numbers by postmark date on our envelope. I made sure I had my entry in the postoffice first thing on the date they started accepting entries. I aways got a front row start.
   If we are to stay on a first come first serve basis, I think the push vehicle in line is another way to go. This way everyone gets to work on their vehicle back in the pits where all their equipment and tools are. Only thing you would have to require is that one push vehicle represents one race vehicle. In other words not one van for 5 motorcycles.
   There are ways this can be done and make everyone happy. By doing it this way you don't create any kind of division in the ranks.
    In my opinion with T/C now being allowed tires are no longer an issue. You must remember tire issues have come and gone through the years. Everything goes full circle and eventually tires will become avaliable for the fast cars.

I hope your holidays are filled with joy,
Tom G.

[Glen]

I think it will be first come first run on the salt. The lakes events are run under the points system. Think back a few years when racers were bringing the cars up as early as Wednesday and putting them in line to get an early start position. The current points system at the lakes is as fair as one can get. 

[desotoman]

If you hav ever seen a 400mph vehicle, you can now kiss them goodbye because they would be foolish to run hard from the zero starting line and kill the tires.

Jack,
   I completely disagree with you on the above statement. Why do you want to instill in people the fear that 400mph runs are history. I feel just the opposite. I think you will see more vehicles run 400 mph . Now that vehicles can run completely computer controlled I feel we have just started to see what can really be accomplished. It is not up to the driver any more, it is up to your computer geek (wizard) to figure out the correct combination for your car. The cars will be faster than ever, for those that can spend the extra money on techology, and master it.

I wish you the best for the holiday season,
Tom G.

[ddahlgren]

desotoman I can not figure out if you are happy with electronics or disappointed. I do think on the TC side you are giving them capabilities that they do not have. I doubt if they will change speeds. I am reasonably certain they will save tires on cars and bikes poorly prepared or the rider/driver has a numb backside. Will they help out some banzi type who only knows how the swat the throttle and hope for the best.. you betcha. basically it will speed up the meet so we don't lose a hour looking for car parts and shredded tire bits all over the place.

At the end of the day there are a few things I am very certain of. The fastest way down the track is to supply an excess of power required and apply as much as possible to the track while allowing a reasonable amount of tire slip as is where they have the most traction. The second I remove torque from the driving wheels I am slowing down. The best way to apply as much torque to the track is simple suspension and the opposite to remove the torque requirement with better aero  so you can go faster with the same wheel torque. About the only change the new TC rule made in my mind is to admit that policing it is impossible and everyone with more than 2 wires in the vehicle does not get looked at like they might be running something not legal..  TC is another tool in the toolbox and a safety device more akin to a tire rev limiter that is slew rate controlled rather than an absolute value. In the rest of the racing world where they make a large difference has nothing to do with LSR. If you are familiar with a friction circle and assume you are. You must be aware that a tire has a fixed amount of G loadings it can deliver to the track. Knowing that appreciate circle track and road race cars try to use as much as possible corning and use up all available traction in lateral G loading. When they come off a corner to aggressive they cross the line of available vs. required and tires spin beyond the maximum slip for best traction and G load ability goes down further the car slows drastically until control is regained. now to put this in perspective most LSR vehicles once out of low gear accelerate at under 0.6 G well within the friction available. Later down track at terminal speed you are limited to the absolute torque capacity of the tires vs. torque required and available. If you still have excess torque available vs. torque required and this is greater than the absolute value the tires can put on the track the car will go no faster either because the tires are spinning or the power is reduced, the net result is the same speed wise. As  I said it should become very obvious the only way to go any faster is to either reduce the torque required or to improve delivery of torque to the track with a better designed suspension system, ballast I suppose if you are completely out of ideas or a band aid for 1 event until a better plan is devised, with the possible exception of a vehicle with a lot of lift and rules that do not allow any realistic way to reduce the lift. Then ballast might be the only practical resort, though adding a whole lot of other problems to follow..

Please do understand desotoman this is not a diatribe aimed at you or some sort of personal attack, but trying to clear up some misconceptions as to what TC can and can not do in LSR as a venue. The rest of the racing world lives and dies for some very small fractions of a second far to the right of the decimal point in speed and time compared to us. Think about it in drag racing 0.001 seconds better 60 ft time improvement in a 16 car field separated by 0.003 seconds is a real big deal. A sporty car races with 9 corners and 0.002 saved on each one is the difference between pole and 5 th qualifier. In NASCAR one position different in points at the end of the year may make the difference between a mega millions sponsor or not. In LSR the time of day you chose to make a pass has a much larger effect on things than TC.. heck the wind direction is a bigger deal for that matter.. Give it some thought but try to picture how it affects safety more than speed. I championed its use long before this rule got passed and in my experience and engineering use of it where legal I am still of the opinion it is for safety and to save those horribly over their head in talent vs. equipment.

My opinion take it for what it is worth as it is free.. though not without familiarity with the technical requirements and where true gains might be made.
Dave Dahlgren
Engine Management Systems

[JackD]

While Dave ain't gonna make the cut as My spokes model, I do have an opening for a typist.
We also pay $25 hr for snow plow operators in Denver.  LOL

MERRY  CHRISTMAS
AND
HAPPY NEW  YEAR
It should be interesting.

Jack

[Richard Thomason]

I think that some people have a lot more confidence in the abilities of TC than I do. I think in certain situations it can be of some benefit, but it is definately not going to replace all the things that we all know are necessary to break records.

[ddahlgren]

Well that is ok Jack don't need to be one for anyone my own deal is doing just fine..LOL
Dave

[dwarner]

Yeah Dave, what I said.

DW

[ddahlgren]

Merry Christmas Dan..

[desotoman]

desotoman I can not figure out if you are happy with electronics or disappointed. I do think on the TC side you are giving them capabilities that they do not have. I doubt if they will change speeds.

Hi Dave,
   Just to clarify some issues, I did not take your post as a personal attack. (in fact I always enjoy reading your posts) I am not happy with electronics but I have to be a realist and they are here to stay. So instead of complaining it is time to turn the page, jump on the bandwagon and use what is avaliable in order to go as fast as possible.
   In the past (please correct me if I am wrong) you have said that traction control will not let a car go faster than it is capable of. I agree completely with that statement. But it is my personal opinion, that a lot of the cars have not reached their fastest terminal velocity in the 5 miles at Bonneville under human control. This is where I feel the computer will make the cars go faster. The advantage they have over a human is the speed in which they can adjust to the conditions involved. This is where I feel there can be signifigant improvements, but this will only happen if Teams spend the money on the equipment necesary. If they don't then we won't see much if any improvements. Anyway that is my 2 cents on the subject. Time will tell.
Have a Happy New Year,
Tom G.

[JackD]

With the SCTA Club limit of 5 miles, traction control might get more popular but the fastest vehicles have already voted with their feet and traction control was previously available to them also.
I think the Sport owes it to the Liners to give them all the space available.
Lets hope it is not too late.

[PorkPie]

There was a while ago a discussion about TC on a e-mail list.

My comment was, if you like to make sucide use TC.

I still got this opinion.

The JCB from Andy Green used TC - don't know where it was coming from - but it was state of the art equipment.

Fine if you can affort a so system and it works....

If it failed, I don't like to sit in this racer.

TC works if you got a clean, all the time same ground under your wheels like a Formula 1 race course.

And salt, always the same :|flat :|clean This tarmac change every 200-300 yards when you got bad luck.

Don't know how long the JCB team worked on there system to get the right parameter - may be it was only a soft working system with only small correction.
But where is the specialist who can wrote your computer program

[Richard Thomason]

We are obviously not able to go after the absolute wheel-driven land speed records, however, we will go to the places that allow us to maximize our potential. We declined the invitation to run at the private meet this Sept. mainly because of cost. Also we would be running against our own FIA record-Category A, Group II, Class 10 at 340.361 mph. We have never had to pay the kind of money that this "private meet" required.