Author Topic: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH  (Read 6000 times)

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Offline bubruins

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2023, 12:34:38 PM »
No doubt that's a sad story and I feel bad for your friend. I've heard of a couple other instances where someone has moved lithium batteries on a boat then there's been a fire. My personal experiences with making changes to vehicles of any kind and experiencing troubles always have me skeptical of circumstances like this, but you never know for sure. I've also done backyard experiments with lithium, diesel, and gasoline over the years. I still plan on putting $2-3k of lithium iron phosphate house batteries on my diesel trawler in the future. To bring this back to land speed; I also plan on putting LiFePo4 batteries on the lakester and not running an alternator because the capacity, value, and safety is so good these days.

Offline noboD

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2023, 08:24:49 PM »
Is it true you can only buy tires from Tesla? I'm told they are special because of the weight.

No, I've replaced tires and had many brands and shops to choose from. Just follow the weight ratings like any other tire.
Thank you for answering.

Offline MAYOMAN

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2023, 05:37:33 PM »
Bubruins, my 2020 Leaf came with Michelins. This month, at 36,000 miles, I replaced them with Goodyear Electric Drive tires. Groove depth new is/was 9mm. Tire replacement at 4mm is advised to avoid hydroplaning. Living on the Gulf Coast, the Leaf is an ideal driving solution. For long distance or hauling stuff I have my Dodge minivan. I make sure to drive it once a week to keep all systems running and avoid "skunky" gas.
The road is long - Life is short - Drive fast

Offline bubruins

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2023, 10:47:52 PM »
I think I'll go for a 300 treadwear or so and just deal with 45psi to try to get some life out of them on a heavy car. On the bolts you can use an oem forged chevy cruise eco wheel from the junkyard and pull 7lbs of unsprung mass out per corner. I squeal the Michelin eco tires turning on a daily basis. I'm going to try to make it to 30-40k miles just to get my money's worth out of the original tires first.

Offline JimL

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2023, 06:02:42 PM »
Maybe info of little interest, sitting at the keyboard on a rainy day, but there is more going on with e-car tires than is commonly known.  To back up in time, a little bit, here is an interesting story (at least it was to me).

When California made a rule (I think it was around 1990 or so) that all major manufacturers had to sell 10% of their new cars as "electric", by year 2000, all the car companies got busy on the study.  At the time, the GM EV-1 was on the road (lease only).  Toyota management told their top engineers to study the best plan for an EV, and bring a logical solution.  When the engineers showed their idea, management was shocked.

Basically, the car they recommended was shaped about like a Model A sedan, with similar ground clearance and tall skinny wheels, and upright windows.  What in the world were they thinking!!??

It was explained to me that there were some key factors:

1.  Tire size (actual rolling diameter) was important.  Anyone who has ever worked for a rock and gravel yard knows the rule:  Never load more than 1/2 weight in solid rocks, versus sand/gravel mix.  Heavy solid mass puts too much shock load into axles, bearings, and tires because it lacks the elasticity of looser material.

The EV was going to have a very heavy (like 1000 lbs), very solid mass hanging under the center of the car.  The tires needed large diameter to reduce impact force angles during regular driving.

2.  Ground clearance.  The battery had to hang under the car, in a position that it could be removed for maintenance or repair.  It needed to be high enough off the ground to clear the concrete parking dividers that people like to goof....and drive over.

3.  Window and windshield angles.  The biggest constant draw, driving in sunny hot California, was going to be the air conditioning load demanded by drivers and passengers.  Extreme sloped front and back glass (like EV-1) was the wrong choice.  You don't need much aero improvement to sit in freeway traffic jams for hours.

4.  Proper geometry for good ABS function (and more tire issues here).  EVs can NEVER be operated without big brakes, effective ABS, all tied to very smart motor control.  Those electric motors are solidly locked to the wheels.  If you ever get them stopped, during a panic stop, they will NOT start rolling easily when you come off the brake pedal.  The motor has to actually ADD power during emergency braking to prevent that uncontrolled skid.

Remember the little toy flywheel cars we had as kids?  You pushed them a couple times on the kitchen floor and they'd go zooming across the room.  If you tried to hit the floor too fast, the flywheel couldn't spin up and the tires just slipped.  Now you know....

I remember the first EV I ever drove (a prototype) that was a simple little van, filled with lead-acid batteries, and the electric motor connect to a 3-speed column shift manual trans (yes...with a clutch pedal).  During the session indoctrination, we were all told that if we EVER failed to push in the clutch before using the brakes, we were out of the program.  No questions, no argument....OUT!!  After stopping, we left the trans in 3rd gear, let out the clutch, and could then apply throttle to drive away.

Anyway, my story gets a little off track, but.... the final solution for initial design led to the launch of the first RAV4. Tall skinny wheels, high ground clearance, upright windows...and a "mini SUV" aimed at getting customers back into that style vehicle (instead of streamlined, pretty sedans and coupes.)  That was the strange start of the compact SUV market....all aimed at getting ready for a year 2000 rule that quietly disappeared.

As Paul Harvey used to say, ".....the rest of the story."  This one I know, because I was there, folks!

Offline manta22

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2023, 06:10:09 PM »
"...California made a rule..." there is the basic problem.  :roll:
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2023, 07:06:00 PM »
"...California made a rule..." there is the basic problem.  :roll:

Neil....was this a very serious comment......?.....!
Pork Pie

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Offline JimL

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2023, 10:22:59 PM »
My apology, folks,....I realized I didn't mention something about the tires. We did have some input into tire construction for vehicles where the power is ONLY applied by 3-phase motor with no alternate ratio available (no shifting).  Cording angles can create unexpected drone from roof panels, etc. when natural frequency falls in line with tire fluctuation frequencies.  In some cases, I could get around the drone issue with slightly reduced tire pressures, but never lower than the "drop acceptable" level.  Keep in mind; even the best radial tire will typically have a slightly distorted 3rd order ratio frequency to deal with.  It is the normal "whip" fluctuation of steel belts.

Regarding running much higher tire pressures than spec, be aware it can create problems for the ABS and VSC software. We did see cases where the effect of "high pressure for higher MPG" showed up in the "black box" crash data.

Before I get the "what black box?" calls, be aware that about everything sold since around 2007 has data stored in the SRS ECU (center sensor).  At the bare minimum there will be 15 seconds or more data of everything you were doing before the crash.  Some cars might have several minutes leading up to the event and during (the G force data is REQUIRED to be stored so NHTSA can evaluate SRS standards and their success or failures).

How fast, how much throttle, how much steering input, brake activity, various G forces...it is all there and can be "called for retrieval" by law enforcement, judges, insurance investigators, and so on.  The data will survive incredible bad crashes.

 I did have to go out some on "calls" to pull the SRS ECU, download, and submit.  The data was NOT available for me to actually read, and I only ever learned a little from lawyers during a court attendance.  I still hate those memories, and feel sorry for the people who now have to go.  You are in a junkyard trying to take apart the center of the lower dash/console area to access the ECU, while trying to get your head around "body parts" and "stuff".

Anyway, back to the subject...if your car is skating from extreme overinflation, it will be revealed in the crash data and physical inspection of the tires (we had to detail photograph all of them, INCLUDING the DOT date codes).  This little-known aspect of modern cars leaves me wondering about a lot of the things we sometimes do.... such as taking the 45mph marked corner at 60mph just because we can.  Then some goof comes around the corner on the wrong side of the road, totals your car, and his lawyers get the data out of your car...that you were well above the posted "safe speed". 

Makes you think.... somebody else can crash you, and you were a "little outside" the rules....and you wind up screwed.  I hope any who read this think a little about their driving choices.  Even modified suspension (lift kits and such) can degrade the ABS and VSC response; it could come back to bite you unexpectedly.

Drive as if somebody with authority is looking over your shoulder.  It could happen to any of us, and you cannot hide it.  Sorry for the disturbing news.... :?

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2023, 10:34:43 PM »
I'm very glad that I got this topic going.  I'm learning one heck of a lot of stuff that's great background in one way or another, is really important to know and understand about EVs, and would take a long, long time for me to learn on my own.  Getting it from a wide swath of car guys helps filter out some (not all!) of the chaff, too.

Thanks.  Keep it coming! :clap :cheers:
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline manta22

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2023, 05:57:47 PM »
"...California made a rule..." there is the basic problem.  :roll:

Neil....was this a very serious comment......?.....!

Yes, Thomas, it was serious. California should get out of the way and let the market sort out what is appropriate.
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline manta22

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2023, 06:00:41 PM »
"How fast, how much throttle, how much steering input, brake activity, various G forces...it is all there and can be "called for retrieval" by law enforcement, judges, insurance investigators, and so on.  The data will survive incredible bad crashes."

Has this data use ever been challenged before the Supreme Court on the basis of a 5th Amendment violation?
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline bubruins

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2023, 06:50:04 PM »
That's usually a civil dispute. You ran 41.5psi in your tires but GM only delivered the car with 41psi so you owe us $7mil for the bus full of nuns that wrecked a block away, etc...

Offline tortoise

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2023, 06:54:49 PM »
California should get out of the way and let the market sort out what is appropriate.
Allowing our atmosphere to be used as a free dumping ground for carbon emissions could be considered a subsidy of fossil fuel use and production, (not to mention the more direct subsidies). Not an issue, I guess, if you consider the global warming thing a scam to take away our freedom.

Offline manta22

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2023, 07:16:20 PM »
California should get out of the way and let the market sort out what is appropriate.
Allowing our atmosphere to be used as a free dumping ground for carbon emissions could be considered a subsidy of fossil fuel use and production, (not to mention the more direct subsidies). Not an issue, I guess, if you consider the global warming thing a scam to take away our freedom.
Trees, grasses, and other green plants scrub the CO2 from the atmosphere. Without CO2, plants die. BTW, it isn't "Global Warming" any longer, it is "Climate Change". This way, no matter which way it goes, warmer or colder, they can claim that they are right. 8-)
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Electric Vehicles: Miles Per Gallon vs. Miles Per KwH
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2023, 07:34:30 PM »
Unh, mmm, ahhhhh-hhh - weren't we discussing EV vs. ICE vehicles so I can learn about them?  Let's get back to that, please.  I'm trying to learn what I need to decide if we want an EV.  Thanks.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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