Author Topic: rear track width  (Read 707 times)

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Offline fissionspeed

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rear track width
« on: May 23, 2023, 03:28:37 PM »
As I'm about to make the cuts to narrow my rear end, I'm wondering if there is any benefit in an LSR application to have a wider rear track width than stock. The chevy S10 has a narrower rear track than in the front. Would there be any stability advantage to making it square or slightly oversquare? Supposedly there is also an aero advantage the closer you get the face of the tire to the fender.

My hunch is that it would probably be more stable with a stock/narrower rear track, but if anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd like to know.

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: rear track width
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2023, 07:48:13 PM »
Filling the fenderwell is desirable for aero & it's more important on the front but you also need to consider the advantage of not having the driving wheels in line with the salt trail coming off the front tires.
  Sid.

Offline JimL

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Re: rear track width
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2023, 09:37:35 PM »
The shorter the axle shaft, the more torque you can get to the ground.  It also reduces "side step" when one rear wheel hits a hole or whatever.  It can be helpful when traction isn't too great.

Back in the days of rear-wheel drive small cars, a lot of "world cars" (third world with lousy, loose roads) were always built with rear track several inches narrower than front.  We really noticed it when 4-wheel alignment equipment showed up in our shops and we checked tracking on rebuilt salvage vehicles.




Offline Interested Observer

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Re: rear track width
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2023, 12:21:20 PM »
Ever reluctant to question a JimL statement, but "The shorter the axle shaft, the more torque you can get to the ground." is, of course, nonsense.  The statement may need more elaboration as to what was intended.

Offline JimL

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Re: rear track width
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2023, 01:11:52 PM »
Us professional trade mechanics were taught early on that extension added to drive (such as our 1/2" air wrench) was a pretty dramatic torque loss at the nut or bolt we were trying to remove.  The elasticity (and energy absorption) of steel is pretty amazing.

There could be an argument that some elasticity in driveline might help traction (on the salt surface) but I believe that would be offset by loss of "torque spacing events" which can allow tires to "hook up" between power events.  Those of us who watched "Star Spangled Banger" run at El Mirage will remember the purpose of that engine/drive system.

Honda certainly learned the lesson well, when they had to design their flat-track engine with similar firing pattern to Harley-Davidson.  Spacing the firing events was the best way to get improved drive off of the corners.

And now, here we are all these years later, and my son just bought a Corolla GR Turbo that uses just 3 cylinders because we can now make so much power (per cylinder) that closed course lap times are better with fewer cylinders.

Electric cars will have to learn this lesson well.  When I was working on the Turbo Highlander Hybrid project, many years ago, we discovered that the electric boost added to the turbocharged V6 resulted in "nearly silent" boiling of the front tires on a hard launch.  If you listened carefully you might hear a slight hissing sound... but the real giveaway was the white smoke boiling through the A/C vents in the dash!

Physics is weird.

P.S.  I got to thinking about this thought....I shouldn't imply that the torque result would be very significant, but "if'n" we are looking for every ounce of power, perhaps...who knows?!

P.P.S.  Boy, you guys have really got my creaky old mind going....  thinking about torsional elasticity, and traction and all, I remember when the Ohio folks asked me to look at their rear tires on the streamliner.  I asked for a tape measure and measured the spacing of the blisters.  I then looked at the final drive ratio and told them they were spinning the electric motor in "square wave" RPM. 

When we use computer generated sine waves (3 phase) we will hit an RPM where the computer is no longer fast enough to generate a clean wave.  During prep of the 2004 Bonneville Prius project, I noticed that Toyota had geared the electric final drive to switch from sine wave to square wave at about 63 MPH.  The initial transition to square wave shows a significant torque boost that does fade back to "normal" available output as speed increases.  This makes highway passing more effective than the small engine and e-power would appear to provide (good driver feel).

I regeared the Prius final drive to put the "square wave" boost at 92 MPH which was the fastest speed my Tundra V8 could push the Prius.  This gave the Prius extra "boost" to jump off the push bar. 

We knew that the limited duration of full electric power (to help top speed in the 3rd mile) might result in significant speed loss during that mile (the computers will start taking engine power for recharging and not maintaining top speed).  The 92 MPH option was a "just in case" we couldn't have enough "range at full draw" from the battery pack.  As it turned out, we didn't need to push that hard to get the best "top speed arc graph" from the Prius.  Our best runs had top speed dead in the middle of the measured mile, with entry and exit speeds nearly equal (but of course slower).

Extra battery capacity could have improved it, but we were all (SCTA included) trying to figure out a base line for "Production class" hybrids without allowing mods that could be hazardous or possibly break parts and drop sharp stuff on the course.

I realize I seem to have rambled off subject here (I'm getting old, folks) but paying attention to small details can sometimes guide us into a good plan.  None of us can outsmart physics, and the sooner we accept that, the sooner we can succeed.  OK...time to stop ramblingl. cromag
« Last Edit: May 25, 2023, 05:11:20 PM by JimL »

Offline Stan Back

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Re: rear track width
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2023, 04:33:52 PM »
Jim --

I look forward to every post you've made over the years.  This is from a Roadster (sans) owner and could never, it seems, take advantage from your teachings.  Even another shovel of coal didn't match up.  But I've always tried to learn something from your posts.

I remember the Tiger post that straightened out how he would be going (not) 85 MPH on that street.

And now, after reading your latest, it seems like you and me are even farther apart.  That's all your fault!  You keep learning and I keep fading away.

But don't stop for me!  I've missed your frequent  entries the last few years and am delighted to see them more often now.  I know your knowledge and experience can help another generation (or 3) and will be enlightened with your wisdom.  I hope they can tell that your wisdom has alway included expanding your experience.

Many happy returns,
Stan
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline JimL

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Re: rear track width
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2023, 12:48:49 AM »
You are too kind, I think.  I don't post much anymore because I am really out of the LSR game, and the added complication of some "stroke damage " makes me "uncertain" pretty often.  Some days, a fellow just can't think clearly.

We have all had some great fun, down through the years, and so I follow the forum to enjoy the memories it sparks.

In a strange twist on the "traction consideration", my main hobby these days (aside from all the music gigs) is riding my e-bicycle.  During some of the wet weather riding I learned an important lesson.  My e-bike is a Class 2 (meaning it has a throttle in addition to the pedal assist).  I discovered that if you are not actively pedaling through mud, you can easily spin up the rear wheel without feeling anything!  The only way to tell the electric motor is over-spinning the wheel is to keep pedaling.  When it suddenly feels like the chain came off, you need to get out of throttle quickly.  If you don't, you will get real muddy when the bike turns sideways and drops you!

Strange how physics is so powerful it can still bite you at 5 MPH. :oops: