Author Topic: Classic Engine Sizes  (Read 1940 times)

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Offline Koncretekid

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Classic Engine Sizes
« on: January 21, 2022, 08:19:07 AM »
I note that in Classic classes, engines may be bored up to .050" to remain in class, i.e. 650 Triumph may be bored to .050" over to 658.2cc, while the 650 BSA, at 654cc, is not allowed even at stock OEM bore. Other manufacturers bikes are also excluded from the Classic class, like Kawasaki Z650s from the late 70's.  I would propose that these bikes should be allowed to run in the Classic class if it can be shown that the actual size is within the limits allowable for other makes.

I currently have a 650 BSA and am contemplating building a racing version, but not as the rule stands.

Tom
We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
Life's uncertain - eat dessert first!

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Classic Engine Sizes
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2022, 10:08:31 AM »
Well Tom the outlet for that is submit a rule change...
Write the rule as you think it should be... don't forget to put the section and sub-section numbers on it for the rule book/books you want to change... post it up here for comment then submit it to the organization/organizations that you want to change their rules to your idea....
 :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline edinlr

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Re: Classic Engine Sizes
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2022, 02:32:10 PM »
Maybe ask for a rule change for classic to allow other classics that are within 1% of the class limit to be able to participate in that class without an overbore being allowed.  So for 650 the limit would be bikes of 656.50 or less.  The other options are to do like I did for my CX650 Honda, was to sleeve it down 1mm to 649, or JimL's method was to destroke the crank to get it below 650.  Good luck, I hope that you can get it done.
Honda CX650 turbo, Kawasaki H2 Ninja, Kawasaki ZX750 turbo

Offline panic

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Re: Classic Engine Sizes
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2022, 07:37:43 AM »
Sleeving the bore retains almost all of the engine's characteristics.
Changing the stroke changes most of them.

How is a class consisting largely of pushrod 2 valve parallel twins not harmed by adding 4 cylinder DOHC 4 valve?

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Classic Engine Sizes
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2022, 12:12:37 PM »
I agree! (Probably don't understand.)

The SCTA motorcycle records structure needs new categories!  The dozens and dozens of open records are starting to fill up!
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Classic Engine Sizes
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2022, 01:49:51 PM »
It's actually hundreds Stan, but this is a BMST post... they may only have hundreds as well. 
 :laugh:  :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline JimL

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Re: Classic Engine Sizes
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2022, 05:14:06 PM »
Destroke can be a really good solution for Bonneville.  Speed of sound is lower, in thinner air, and I gained higher useable RPM without hitting the 0.5 Mach wall (port speed).  I also needed the room for bigger valves and seats (we also had to raise the intake ports).

My destroke CX650 engine was always faster than the stock stroke "bigger" engine   Both my engines used larger than stock bore (to allow a ring pack for modified Hayabusa).  The 680cc engine never ran past 159, but the destroke version ran 164 (all with same gearing, cam, carbs, etc.)  The shorter stroke engine did not wet down my left knee with gasoline mist at 10-11,000 rpm.  The stock stroke engine made strange intake sound and had spooky little clouds hanging out of the velocity stacks.  It really hit a wall at 159 and change.

The downside of destroke was the expense....I had to take Castillo extra crankshafts, pay the price for each destroke, and accept loss of two cranks that cracked excessively during the final work.  That was perfectly fair, as they had to do all the hours of work regardless of how it came out.  It was strictly luck of the draw, and no fault of theirs....they did what was really difficult when no one else would even try.

Sometimes what seems obvious has a hidden surprise....especially when bigger does not prove to be better.  Thanks fellows, for letting me ramble through some old memories.  The years have sure slipped away, here, and my hobby these days is relearning how to use the right side of my body after the stroke last November.  The good news is I can still ride my e-bicycle ok! :|

Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Classic Engine Sizes
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2022, 08:55:58 AM »
Sleeving the bore retains almost all of the engine's characteristics.
Changing the stroke changes most of them.

How is a class consisting largely of pushrod 2 valve parallel twins not harmed by adding 4 cylinder DOHC 4 valve?

The Z650 Kawasaki is a 2 valve DOHC 652cc. Yes you can de-stroke or sleeve, but not in Classic classes as I read the rules, as the OEM designation governs the displacement class in which you can compete. 

I agree! (Probably don't understand.)

The SCTA motorcycle records structure needs new categories!  The dozens and dozens of open records are starting to fill up!

AMA/BMST added the Classic class which is attractive for many people who want to compete but can't afford to spend their life savings on a more modern, i.e. pricey newer model. Not unlike when both AMA and SCTA created the Pushrod classes so Harleys and British bikes could still compete. Not unlike your AIR classes, or Classic car classes. The organizations can only survive by attracting enough competitors to make the events economical; hence add more classes. I don't see how or why anyone now owning a record should complain.

As for me, I already have AMA 500 and 650 records and SCTA 250 records using just a pushrod pre-1980 single cylinder motor.  I could currently run my bikes in the AMA Classic class and set records, but I'm always looking for the next challenge and my pushrod singles are at or near the top of the bar.

So I just put this out there because it seems logical, and as for the BSA 650 (654), it is accepted in nearly all other vintage racing organizations as a 650, and the AMA ruling allowing +.050" overbore in the Classic classes brings up the question of, well, why allow the oversize Triumphs and others and not the BSA?

Tom

We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
Life's uncertain - eat dessert first!