Author Topic: A, APS front suspension  (Read 4117 times)

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Offline deanroberts

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Re: A, APS front suspension
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2021, 02:27:19 PM »
Center hub?

Center hub steering is certainly an option, but I haven't been able to find one that's commercially available.  Most that we see on the salt are self-manufactured and I'm not up for that.

Dean

Offline deanroberts

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Re: A, APS front suspension
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2021, 02:38:00 PM »
I noticed that not only does the wheel turn (pivot), it also moves laterally. What problem is this type of steering solving?

Conventional fork-based steering arrangements have a steering head and fork clamps above the front wheel.  I'm working on a Sidecar Streamliner (SCS).  I'll be reclining low in the cockpit and need to see over the front wheel.  In addition I don't want to add frontal area so close to the front of the vehicle.  You are correct that with OEC/duplex/virtual steering the wheel moves [significantly] laterally and I need to find a way around that.

Dean

Offline deanroberts

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Re: A, APS front suspension
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2021, 02:41:50 PM »
Manta,
 I've modeled it and it seems to be self-centering.
Sam

Correct.  From what I've been able to read OEC found it to be VERY self-centering.  Their bike had LOTS of straight line stability, but didn't turn very well.

Dean

Offline deanroberts

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Re: A, APS front suspension
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2021, 02:49:27 PM »
Frankly, to me it looks like an unnecessary complication.

It's very possible that I'm overlooking something obvious, so I'm curious what what you'd suggest that might be simpler given my design objectives (as explained in my response to manta22 above). 

Dean

Offline deanroberts

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Re: A, APS front suspension
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2021, 03:17:58 PM »
Quote
1) For zero lateral movement, it seems you would have to have zero rake. 
2) Without rake, I think it would be difficult to ride a motorcycle at speed, as it is the lateral movement that sets the lean into a turn (i.e. counter steering). In fact, on a motorcycle streamliner, it would be extremely difficult to steer because the rider is strapped in tightly and cannot lean.  The rake of the front wheel is what initiates the lean and hence the steering. 
3) Now on a motorcycle sidecar streamliner, you might think that it will steer like a car, but without any rake (caster), it might be hard to keep it in a straight line. 

Tom

Thanks Tom.  Let me take these one at a time:
1) You are correct.  I should have said that I need zero lateral movement from the steering axis of inclination
2) On a sidecar streamliner (SCS) lean is the very LAST thing I want!  With rake (or caster) I'll get a change in camber, but anything else would present as bump steer.  I believe that a three-wheeled motorcycle DOES steer more like a car than a bike.  I don't know that from experience, but I suspect that riders of CanAms and other trikes figure it out very quickly.
3) No question. I WILL need what's called rake and trail on a motorcycle or caster on an automobile.  Zero degrees rake and zero trail (or zero caster) would be a disaster.  I'll probably have to find the sweet spot the old fashioned way:  try, adjust, repeat over and over until I find what I want.

I DO appreciate your thoughtful comments.  Thanks!

Dean


Offline deanroberts

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Re: A, APS front suspension
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2021, 03:21:27 PM »
Here's one you could experiment with on the cheap. 
https://jalopnik.com/a-virtual-steering-monkey-is-the-weirdest-motorcycle-1847999541

Another good example of an OEC/virtual/duplex steering arrangement.  But (for me at least  :-D) $8,760 plus shipping from Belgium isn't exactly cheap!

Dean

Offline deanroberts

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Re: A, APS front suspension
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2021, 04:07:28 PM »


"No suspension shown", except on Bob Horn's very interesting recumbent EX500 road racer.

Tom
[/quote]

I Googled Bob Horn recumbent EX500 road racer.  Thanks Tom!  It is indeed very interesting.  He uses OEC/duplex/virtual steering at the front AND steers the rear via some linkages I didn't take time to fully understand.  But he's full of fascinating ideas.  I did note that on his current project he's building the front around hub center steering.  I didn't read far enough to understand why he's discarded duplex for hub center, but there's probably enough information in this thread to make a reasonable guess.  (For what it's worth my Plan B is a mechanically simpler form of hub center steering.  It may not work of a 2-wheeled motorcycle (although I can't think why it wouldn't), but I think I can make it work on a sidecar rig.  Stay tuned.)

Dean