Author Topic: Belly pan effects  (Read 3529 times)

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Offline jacksoni

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Belly pan effects
« on: July 29, 2020, 10:01:33 AM »
Does anyone have some real numbers either speed/handling or wind tunnel to see the effect of adding a belly pan only (no skirts, no tunnels, nothing else) to a car? Lift, downforce, drag/Cd numbers etc? Actual experience best but opinions welcome!!
Thanks.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline manta22

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2020, 10:54:27 AM »
Good question, Jack. I hope someone has data.
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline manta22

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2020, 10:55:04 AM »
Good question, Jack. I hope someone has data.
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2020, 01:22:10 PM »
Hey Neil- I looked back in your build thread but haven't noticed if you plan Speedweek? Rex had asked back in May or something but I don't see if you answered.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline manta22

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2020, 02:04:17 PM »
Hey Neil- I looked back in your build thread but haven't noticed if you plan Speedweek? Rex had asked back in May or something but I don't see if you answered.

I had sent in my entry for World of Speed but that has since been cancelled. No time to get ready for Speedweek, unfortunately.
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2020, 05:45:38 PM »
Back to belly pans . . .

This is out of the past (from a guy that can't remember what day it is) . . .

But a friend of mine built a belly pan for a guy with a Honda (Acura) NSX ? their very racy rear-engined sports car.  He said it was a hell of a job.  (He also didn't have a lift.)  After all was said and done, as I remember, it didn't gain any speed. 

I'm thinking that those very cleaver Honda engineers had configured it pretty good from the start.  It didn't have as much horsepower as its contemporaries, but it was still fast.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2020, 07:38:07 PM »
A belly pan with several modifications was used in the wind tunnel.  Yarn tufts were on the pan and there were smoke tests as well as comparison of the measured Cd's.  The added streamlining modifications to the pan outside of the turbulence zone behind the wheel helped.  Added modifications inside of the turbulence trail did not help.

A big benefit of a well sealed pan is to keep salt out of the hard to clean areas under the vehicle.  All of the modifications that increased coverage under the vehicle were retained for this purpose regardless of whether or not they helped the aero. 

Offline ggl205

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2020, 10:52:08 PM »
WW, good point about keeping salt out of hard to clean areas of a belly pan. My lakester has no fewer than 85, 1/4-28 flush head stainless steel bolts securing 19 feet of 3/16? thick aluminum, all with allen head centers. Another 18, 3/8? flush head stainless bolts acting as backup to the 1/4-28 bolts. If I can?t keep salt out of those Allen heads, that pan may never come off. Of course, that was one of the reasons to bolt the pan to chassis in the first place.

John

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2020, 03:56:55 PM »
This is something else about the belly pan.  Originally the sides were vertical where they met the horizontal pan at a 90 degree angle.  In theory, it is likely that air flow travels over side and belly surfaces at slightly different speeds.  The faster moving flow would be a lower pressure area than the slower flow.  The slower moving flow would curl over the 90 degree corner and it would join the faster flow.  This would cause an energy-robbing eddy current in the vehicle wake.  There is a term for this turbulence.  I do not remember it right now.

Upon learning about this, the pan/side 90 degree corner was removed behind the rear wheel and it was replaced by a large radius rounded edge.  All edges parallel to air flow were rounded behind me all the way to the end of the bike.  The wake seen in the smoke tests showed that this concept appeared to work.  There were no spiraling eddies behind the joint where the sides and belly pan met.

All testing was done with the rounded lower edges.  The sharp edge setup was not tested so there is no direct comparison.

Offline Bratfink

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2020, 12:04:25 PM »
Good observation, but sometimes you actually want to induce those counter rotating vorticies.

jacksoni I think we spoke about this over email.

Where you are getting air under the car, a bellypan is going to increase downforce, mostly at the front. It can increase rear downforce should there be a diffuser to take advantage of that since you have more attached air under the car. Increased downforce normally results in increased drag, but it doesn't have to. it depends on how you manage the wake in the base pressure behind the car and, as WW pointed out, managing the cross flow between sides and floor too.

The thing to watch for with belly pans (or any underbody ground effect aero stuff) is pitch sensitivity. A highly pitch sensitive car will have large swings in downforce due to relatively small changes in vehicle attitude. That will go from mildly poor handling to "oh crap I'm flying" very quickly. There are methods to mitigate this, most take time in a tunnel, but there could be empirical ways to do this on the salt if you have some patience to make changes and run conservative speeds until you are satisfied with the safety. This is one of those areas of development I would ONLY trust to a moving ground wind tunnel or actual track data. Fixed ground tunnels raise alot of questions here.

Of course if you have an air dam or other blockage device at the front of the car a bellypan will most likely not do much.

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2020, 08:01:18 PM »
Thanks all. Currently at the salt, racing tomorrow. Hope I get to try the pan as that would mean I have already set 3 records.....LOL fat chance. Anyway gonna try.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline Hot Rod Lincoln

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2020, 07:04:17 PM »

How did the pan workout ?

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Belly pan effects
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2020, 07:49:16 PM »
We didn't get a chance to try. Had qualified at 194+ Monday, went through impound and pushed to the line Tuesday for return run. I was in the car, suited up and going through gears the trans locked and then started making all sorts of nasty expensive noises when got back to neutral and was pushing up in line. It is broken. So we were done.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019