Can a special construction MC frame have a production engine

[panchop]

I purchased an old bike with a modified drag bike frame and a basicly stock Z1 engine. So even though it's a production engine it wasn't produced for this custom frame. Do I have that right and if so does that mean it must be classed as a modified engine?

[Nortonist 592]

As the rules stand if your frame was not manufactured by Kawasaki you are in special construction not modified.  The rules state that for the modified class the engine and frame manufacturer must be the same.  That your engine isn't modified is irrelevant.  Still, a stock Z1 should zip along nicely.

[Dean Los Angeles]

All engines are modified. (At least if you want a record.) The only limitations on production engines are that it be "stock appearing." The insides are almost limitless for modification. If you are running a production motorcycle then the production engine rules apply.

In your case with a custom frame, the engine is unlimited. You can run a stock Vespa or a fire breathing Harley.

[1212FBGS]

correct... modified or "A" frame = anthing goes for the motor! except no car motors.
kent

[Hans Blom]

But if the frame is just a partially cut up kawa frame it might be eligible for Modified, depending on how and where it is modified correct?

[narider]

But if the frame is just a partially cut up kawa frame it might be eligible for Modified, depending on how and where it is modified correct?

Correct Hans,

Per my understanding of the SCTA Rulebook:
The frame must be built to oe frame specs or be an oem replacement in a similiar configuration to the original specs. This is not limited to streetbikes, and can be dirtbikes or race only bikes as long as it was done by a manufacturer(if self built then it must be based on a street bike frame). And at least 50%(who gets to guess at that part) of this frame as it was built by the oe(from swingarm area forward) must be retained.  

Per 2006 ECTA Rulebook(i take for granted all statements or quesions in here are concerning SCTA, but thought I'd throw this out there anyway as there is a diffference):
As long as it's based on an oe frame you are good to go. Any bracketry and braces as well as steering head angle(rake) can still be modified as it can with SCTA.
Todd

[1212FBGS]

example... we took a CX500 turbo, cut the motor out, turned it sideways to get rid of the driveshaft, built a jackshaft, back halved the whole rear end, installed GSXR rear swingarm and fabricated upper and lower shock mounts, fabed total rear seat supportsand frame rails, cut the neck off changed the rake and installed a GSXR front end. lots of other stuff like Charlie Toy bodywork different turbo and fuel system and STILL set a record in "M" class.
read the rule book and call the tech guys.
kent
ps make sure you have a metal chain gard and metal valve stems.

[half-fast]

 :?So A-P or M-P (legal per last sentence of bold type in 7.D.4) would be valid frame and engine classifications, but yet find no vehicle entry data codes in Appendix A, and also no established records........so the question remains is production engine classification in special construction or modified frame(s)? 

[MattS]

:?So A-P or M-P (legal per last sentence of bold type in 7.D.4) would be valid frame and engine classifications, but yet find no vehicle entry data codes in Appendix A, and also no established records........so the question remains is production engine classification in special construction or modified frame(s)? 

Production applies to the motorcycle configuration, not the engine. There are no A- production or M- production just like there is no sidecar production or streamliner production. A production bike has to look stock.... no after market exhaust or fairings etc. The engine can be modified, as long as the changes are not visable, ie pistons & cams changes are ok but you can't put a turbo on it or nitrous. Also, to run in production you must run gasoline, not fuel. So what you describe would be an A or M class bike, depending on what type of frame & how much the frame has been altered.

Production classes I've seen are:

P-P        production bike
P-PP      production pushrod
P-V       production vintage
P-PB     production blown
P-PPB   production pushrod blown

Hope that helps.


Matt

[half-fast]

<sub>Production applies to the motorcycle configuration, not the engine. There are no A- production or M- production just like there is no sidecar production or streamliner production. A production bike has to look stock.... no after market exhaust or fairings etc. The engine can be modified, as long as the changes are not visable, ie pistons & cams changes are ok but you can't put a turbo on it or nitrous. Also, to run in production you must run gasoline, not fuel. So what you describe would be an A or M class bike, depending on what type of frame & how much the frame has been altered.

Production classes I've seen are:

P-P        production bike
P-PP      production pushrod
P-V       production vintage
P-PB     production blown
P-PPB   production pushrod blown

Hope that helps.


Matt</sub>
[/quote]

Matt,

I agree with you in so far as the first P applies to the bike, must be stock appearing, etc, and also agree with limitations on the engine, must use OEM heads, Carbs, Jugs, and case(s) no blown unless factory, no fuel.

Where we disagree is that

P-P is production/production (for production bike {i.e. class} with production engine {i.e. engine class})

clearly by rule qutoed previously a  special construction frame or a modified frame (iaw with current rules) with a production engine would be most properly be
A-P  or M-P, clearly a class engine combination currently allowed for by rule(s), but yet no designated vehicle entry ID or records near as I can tell.

By rule 7.D.4 (pg 99, 2006 edition SCTA) engine class "P" allowed in all frame classes except "SC" which seems real fair to the factory harleys that had a factory sidecar. Perhaps this rule is a typo-inversion???

So we all rushing out to buy factory fresh production engines and sticking in modified and special  construction frames?

[Sumner]

<sub>Production applies to the motorcycle configuration, not the engine. There are no A- production or M- production just like there is no sidecar production or streamliner production. A production bike has to look stock.... no after market exhaust or fairings etc. The engine can be modified, as long as the changes are not visable, ie pistons & cams changes are ok but you can't put a turbo on it or nitrous. Also, to run in production you must run gasoline, not fuel. So what you describe would be an A or M class bike, depending on what type of frame & how much the frame has been altered.

Production classes I've seen are:

P-P        production bike
P-PP      production pushrod
P-V       production vintage
P-PB     production blown
P-PPB   production pushrod blown

Hope that helps.


Matt</sub>

Matt,

I agree with you in so far as the first P applies to the bike, must be stock appearing, etc, and also agree with limitations on the engine, must use OEM heads, Carbs, Jugs, and case(s) no blown unless factory, no fuel.

Where we disagree is that

P-P is production/production (for production bike {i.e. class} with production engine {i.e. engine class})

clearly by rule qutoed previously a  special construction frame or a modified frame (iaw with current rules) with a production engine would be most properly be
A-P  or M-P, clearly a class engine combination currently allowed for by rule(s), but yet no designated vehicle entry ID or records near as I can tell.

By rule 7.D.4 (pg 99, 2006 edition SCTA) engine class "P" allowed in all frame classes except "SC" which seems real fair to the factory harleys that had a factory sidecar. Perhaps this rule is a typo-inversion???

So we all rushing out to buy factory fresh production engines and sticking in modified and special  construction frames?

[/quote]

I might be wrong or not understand your question, but I think the "P" you are refering to in those classes denotes "pushrod".

c ya,

Sum

[JohnR]

If the question is "can you run a production 'class' engine in a non-production frame?" then the answer is No, you can't.

For years the rule book has not explicitly stated that you can not but it was clarified last Friday night at the board-reps meeting when the new M/C rules were presented and voted on. New wording will be added to the 2007 book stating that production class engines can only be run in production class frames (or some such text).

There are no records set in this manner so it was treated as a clarification only.

john

[JackD]

The rules are getting stupid faster than they are getting fast.
Hard and fast rules are the best.
Changes that answer non problems are the worst.

[dwarner]

Apparentely this is a problem or the question would not have been asked.

Same rules - more words

DW

[JackD]

KISS
Simply put, an engine that meets all of the rules as a production motor can run in any frame class including streamliner.
You would be giving away the performance advantages available to the other classes above Production frame limitations but there is no rule against it yet.
I can see the complication of the rules is even starting to confuse the more experienced.
They are authored by those with none and won't answer up anyway.
GO FIGURE