Author Topic: El Mirage  (Read 59135 times)

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Offline JackD

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READING COMPREHENSION = NOT
« Reply #120 on: November 01, 2006, 08:34:53 PM »
Reading comprehension  at initial tech and suitable enforcement of the
rules we have would have had a different result if enough balls were used
 properly at anytime up to the end.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline ack

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El Mirage
« Reply #121 on: November 02, 2006, 09:43:38 AM »
I think it was Pops Yoshimura that said:

 ?Competition is the search for an unfair advantage?

Looks like Rick and Jack might have found it.

The main thing that got me interested in the motorcycle land speed record was the great degree of innovation allowed in its pursuit. Many main stream motor sports have pretty much stifled innovation.  NASCAR and Champ Car being patron saints of it.

Maybe I am just an old fart but I miss the innovative stuff that came out of open wheel and other forms of racing in the 60? and early 70?s. Jim Hall, Dan Gurney, Andy Granatelli and many others came up with a lot of innovation stuff that made racing more interesting in my view. Today it is understandable that with the huge amount of money that is being spent on corporate sponsorship they can?t allow some upstart to come up with a better idea and win races.  Today it is much more about the driving skills than innovation.

Many of the innovations were subsequently banned and maybe rightly so in the interest of safety or fairness.  It is when no innovation is allowed that things get dull in my book.

Offline RichFox

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« Reply #122 on: November 02, 2006, 10:10:54 AM »
Innovation is very important to land speed trials. So is integrity. Faking 500CCs to move up a class, if you know the tag engine will not run and was never expected to run, isn't that far removed from finding a way to hide 500CCs to move down a class. Would you applaud such a thing?

Offline JackD

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IMPORTAMT
« Reply #123 on: November 02, 2006, 10:19:28 AM »
The important thing to remember in those cases and some others is the
 innovations not only got ahead of the Sanction Body but really worked.
They were not phonied up to sharp shoot anybody or anything.
They had the respect of their peers that wished they had thought of it.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

JohnR

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El Mirage
« Reply #124 on: November 02, 2006, 12:04:58 PM »
Quote from: RichFox
Innovation is very important to land speed trials. So is integrity. Faking 500CCs to move up a class, if you know the tag engine will not run and was never expected to run, isn't that far removed from finding a way to hide 500CCs to move down a class. Would you applaud such a thing?


Rich,

While I agree they are close in semantics, they are light years apart in reality. If an extra 500cc gives you an unfair advantage then why doesn't being short 500cc put you at an unfair disadvantage?. In competitive sports these two could be considered opposites, night and day.

So if 500cc over is wrong then 500cc under must be right!

It's false logic but it makes a point worth thinking about.

Regards,

John

Offline RichFox

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« Reply #125 on: November 02, 2006, 12:25:47 PM »
John: I was not referring to the advantage expected by adding or concealing displacement. I was referring to the concept of circumventing "The Spirit Of The Rules" in order to gain points. If a person has a 306 cid sbf for instance, he is in "C" motor class. If he finds a way of fooling the pump to lose 100CCs he is in "D". The one cubic inch he needed to lose (I know 100CCs is 6 inches) didn't really give him an advantage. That's not the point. I feel that the board was wrong to allow the record, if they believe the tag engine never was intended to do anything but add displacement. I wasn't there and only know what i read here, which causes me to believe that was the case. Did the 500CCs make the car faster? No. Did they allow it to run in a slower class. I guess so.

JohnR

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El Mirage
« Reply #126 on: November 02, 2006, 01:03:25 PM »
Quote from: RichFox
...I was referring to the concept of circumventing "The Spirit Of The Rules" in order to gain points...


OK, I understand what you are saying.

I guess the problem is that it's hard to legislate the "intention" of a competitor or the "spirit" of a rule. Funny thing is, people disagree on what the spirit is/was and state their intentions as different from what you think their intention was.

A safe haven for those who have the bad luck to be asked to decide what someone elses intention was or if the spirit of a rule (without the spirit being agreed on) is to uphold the rule as written and not try to add additional interpretations to it.

I can't say I would have decided it better than they did. I may have decided it differently but who is to say that a different intrepretation would have been a better interpretation. Surely some would have been pleased but then surely others would have been unhappy.

When one person intreprets a rule and deviates from the letter of the rule to a "spirit" of the rule in which he defines that spirit then he is flirting with danger. His "spirit" interpretation may have all, or nothing in common with anothers and who is to say which is more valid? When someone deviates from the written rule and intreprets it to their understanding of the spirit (which differes from your idea on the spirit) then how can that be defended? If everybody agreed on the spirit then it's easy, but not everybody agrees on the spirit of the rule, as evidenced by the fact that this whole thing even happened in the first place.

There is one thing that everybody agreed on, and that is the wording in the rule book. When the board followed it in making their decision they acted on our stated wishes. We now look back and say "that's not what we meant" but it is what we said. The rule book will be changed to properly reflect the wishes of the majority and this is a good thing. But, I don't believe it is fair to fault the board for making a decision based on the written and agreed upon framework for conducting our events. You may have decided it differently, as I may have, but their decision can be rationally defended based on all the facts presented at the board meeting (which differ from the ones presented here).

Also, keep in mind that the decision was on the filed protest. The protest specifically addressed the fire system on the car and the engine class. I don't know anybody who does agree that things could have been handled differently in the initial tech on the car.

As a quick test, does the "spirit" of the Gas/Fuel rule prevent a gas powered car from running as a fuel car to run on a softer record? How is this different? Does the V4F engine class allow you to add additional main bearings to your pre-35 ford flathead to add strength, thus allowing more boost/nitro and therefore more speed and more points? How is this different?

Just more ramblings to think about.

Regards,

John

Offline RichFox

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« Reply #127 on: November 02, 2006, 01:13:59 PM »
John; My answer to you is that this discussion is missing the most important input. If Rick says that when He left the start line he expected the tag motor to start and add what ever it could to the effort, that that's good enough for me. If Rick were to say the tag motor was never part of the power train and it's only purpose was to add false displacement in order to move into a more advantageous class, then that's that. I thought the tag motor was a great innovation and really respected the thought that went into it. Now I'm not so sure.

Offline RichFox

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« Reply #128 on: November 02, 2006, 01:20:38 PM »
PS At one time I think that Fuel class cars were checked to insure that they were running "Fuel". And I have no idea what Ford guys in V4F do. Plymouth guys would never run a 5 main bearing crank. Unless they stepped up to a Dodge block. I believe the rule book may be written to require original main bearing locations in V4F for the '07 season

Offline RichFox

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« Reply #129 on: November 02, 2006, 01:59:33 PM »
Another example. I'm running my Vega with a 499 cid Roline in A/CGAlt. The record is 246.063 and my car will only go 175. So can I throw my lawnmower in the trunk and step up to AA where the record is 106.650? If I tow it behind the Vega is that OK? Would I bring my lawnmower to Bonneville?

JohnR

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« Reply #130 on: November 02, 2006, 02:37:31 PM »
Quote from: RichFox
Another example. I'm running my Vega with a 499 cid Roline in A/CGAlt. The record is 246.063 and my car will only go 175. So can I throw my lawnmower in the trunk and step up to AA where the record is 106.650? If I tow it behind the Vega is that OK? Would I bring my lawnmower to Bonneville?


If you can get it properly chained to the back of your Vega before the November meet then go for it! After then it looks like it would not be allowed!  Just make sure you use speed rated tires and a double return spring on the throttle and that it is "in gear" when you leave the line :o

Of course, thats a joke. It would not be legal because you are in the classic class so you could not use just any lawn mower, it would have to be mfg prior to 1982 (?). Since all the old mowers had B&S engines  you would have to enter it as a non-ford flathead engine (XO) which would preclude you from running in AA.

JohnR

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El Mirage
« Reply #131 on: November 02, 2006, 03:09:01 PM »
Quote from: RichFox
I believe the rule book may be written to require original main bearing locations in V4F for the '07 season


That is correct. The argument for this is that the spirit of the rule was always that the old blocks should not be reinforced. Of course, there is a group of people who dispute that. Who's "spirit" is right? The written rule make no distinction. If a protest was filed against a Ford Model A engine with a 5 main girdle, should it be upheld because someone says the it's against the spirit? Consider that there are many people on each side of this debate and both think they are right (of course).

Offline Stan Back

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« Reply #132 on: November 02, 2006, 03:14:02 PM »
Dual engines are not allowed in Classic Gas Altereds (or in Pickups to answer another query), so there's a problem rite thare.

Did the Protester get his C-Note back even tho the protest was disallowed?  After all, he filed it with a Rule Change Form and that would look like he was bribing the officials.  Inquiring minds want to know.
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Offline RichFox

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« Reply #133 on: November 02, 2006, 03:23:46 PM »
Stan: I expected someone would point that out. It was an "Example For The Sake Of Argument" OK I have a 510 inch Roline in the Vega, but I'm running it as a V7 to make the A class. No pushrods in one cylinder  Can I now claim the eighth cylinder to move into AA?

Offline JackD

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WATCH THE BIRDIE
« Reply #134 on: November 02, 2006, 04:00:23 PM »
Faking it is faking it either way and the other racers deserve better.
The rulebook deserves rereading before you cite gasoline as being
forbidden in the Fuel class. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"