Author Topic: CP vs CG  (Read 102607 times)

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Offline Sumner

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2014, 10:36:07 PM »
....Tortoise’s reply #22 is correct....

I agree.  A wing can provide downforce that would help to keep the tires from spinning, but once they do and it they do then if is going to be the relationship of the CG to CP that is going to keep the car from going around as the downforce from the wing has most-likely left the room at that point,

Sumner

Offline 7800ebs

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2014, 11:13:08 PM »
I'm guessing the wing fell off... ?  If the down force left... :cheers:

Bob

Offline Sumner

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2014, 11:28:40 PM »
I'm guessing the wing fell off... ?  If the down force left... :cheers:

Bob

If the car starts to spin what air is the wing seeing in relation to the direction the car is still headed?  Is it still going directly across the wing?  As long as the wing is seeing the air like it was designed for it will be applying aero downforce that is going to help to keep the tires from spinning and as long as they don't spin too long and upset the car all is well but once the car does start around the wing is going to be less and less effective in providing that downforce.  A wing is effective in providing downforce for traction which sure helps but does not change where the CG on the car is.

In the case of the Stude when the throttle stuck and the tires were spinning for 5 seconds the CP didn't stop the car from going around until the back and the vertical stabilizes were at maybe a 60 degree angle (guessing) to the direction of travel.  There is going to be a big difference between say having the CG ahead of the CP by 6 inches vs. 6 feet.  Both will help but one is not going to help as quickly and maybe not enough once inertia is involved.

As George said in the interview in BRN (more or less) the car was stable for many runs before conditions finally were too much and it went around.  He notes that the cars CG was behind the CP and also notes that it won't be if there is a new car,

Sum
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 11:30:35 PM by Sumner »

Offline 7800ebs

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2014, 11:49:40 PM »
Studebakers with wings... What has this world come to..  Just.. Kidding..  :-D

This subject is interesting to me..  That's why I have one of the biggest tails out there.. And a wing..

A great debate..

Hard to build a proper car as a RWD car.. 

Danny Thompson's liner is a very good 4wd design.

Offline jl222

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2014, 01:17:36 AM »
The percentage difference between them will decrease as speed increases due to the added weight on the wing at the rear of the vehicle. The CG will move rearward.
  Sid.

  Yeah Sid I don't know how the CG wouldn't change as speed increases.

  If the CG was measured at rest then 100 lbs. added to a rear wing the CG would move back. But at speed adding
100 lbs of down force the CG doesn't change? Just can't buy that.

              JL222

Offline jlmccuan

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2014, 09:38:24 AM »
I am kind of new to the LSR thing, but have noticed that most of the near stock bodied Studebaker coupes have a vent cut from above the rear axle up to just behind the rear window.  I was told by several teams that these were added because the negative pressure in the window area and air under the car caused lift at speeds over 175 and promoted spins.  If that is true, is there any application to the CG vs CP involved?
Rabid Snail Racing

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2014, 11:42:54 AM »
I think we're dealing in semantics here. Physically the CG is made up of all the components in the vehicle and the way they're distributed throughout the chassis. The only thing that changes there throughout a run is the fuel used. Downforce or lift is produced by the motion of the vehicle and whatever outside forces may be applied such as cross wind. These are dynamic forces and vary with the speed and wind, both force and direction plus the effect of any changes in elevation which would cause the chassis to react. I think probably what we're talking about when the vehicle is in motion is balance which would be a combination of the static CG plus the dynamics of downforce and lift.

Is it possible that a lack of competition last season is allowing us time to over think what's going on???  :-D :-D :evil:
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 11:45:18 AM by Peter Jack »

Offline tortoise

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2014, 12:07:42 PM »
 Yeah Sid I don't know how the CG wouldn't change as speed increases.

  If the CG was measured at rest then 100 lbs. added to a rear wing the CG would move back. But at speed adding
100 lbs of down force the CG doesn't change? Just can't buy that.
There must be a way to get this idea through.

Think of 2 externally identical vehicles, vehicle A with most weight in front, vehicle B with most weight in rear. Both have adjustable wings, front and rear. Adjust the wings so that at 200 mph the wheel loadings are the same for both vehicles.

By your thinking, both vehicles now have the same CG at 200 mph, right?

Drive over a patch of black ice at 200. (Funny weather at Bonneville, huh?)

Will vehicle A and vehicle B behave the same?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:13:21 PM by tortoise »

Offline TheBaron

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2014, 01:03:11 PM »
I've spent a lot of time over the last 10 years explaining vehicle dynamics to student mechanical engineers that have had little real work experience with vehicles of any kind… So, I'll wade in on this:

The center of Mass (Gravity) is an imaginary point where aLL the Mass (weight) of a vehicle  can be considered to be concentrated. It only changes when components (fuel for example) are consumed or moved about the vehicle (relocating a battery).

When static and level, the CG location determines how much of the vehicles mass is supported by each wheel (tire loading). This in turn, determines the traction available for each wheel.

Aero package "Downforce" increases the vehicle's "TIRE LOADING" (traction)where the aero package is located, but it does not increase the Mass of the vehicle (except for what the air directing devices actually weigh of course).

Aerodynamic device downforce is very sensitive to the  "relative wind" flowing over or through them.. Tire Loading can suddenly go away when a aero device no longer has the relative wind properly flowing over it from the normal direction…..

I hope this helps some to see the difference.

Robert "Smitty" Smith

Offline Interested Observer

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2014, 01:30:23 PM »
It is not a matter of semantics, it is a matter of being unclear and confused about what exactly the CP and CG actually are.  Sid and JL222 need to review and come to grips with their definitions.  Attempting to apply them while misusing them, not surprisingly, leads to an erroneous understanding of the situation.  Ascribing aero forces to the CG instead of the CP is the root of their problem.

At Bonneville there are essentially two sets of forces acting on the vehicle to maintain or disturb directional control.  They are the tractive forces generated by the tires interacting with the surface, and the aero forces acting on the body.  At slow speeds the tractive forces dominate and directional control is easily maintained via the steering system.  As speeds rise and aero loads increase, the tractive requirements also increase.  There comes a point that the tires lose traction with the surface, spinning (with sufficient horsepower), and with that, a loss of directional control.  At that point tractive forces are negligible and aero forces are substantial.  The aero drag forces are acting as if through the CP to slow down the vehicle while the inertial forces due to the mass of the vehicle, acting at the CG, are trying to continue down the course.  If the CG is in front of the CP, the mass is essentially pulling the vehicle down the course in a stable manner.  With the CG behind the CP the situation is unstable until the vehicle rotates to the point that the CG is in front of the CP.  (Putting aside the fact that the CP location while travelling backwards is probably not in the same location as going forward) The spin unfortunately introduces rotational inertia forces which may overpower the possibly tenuous stability of the CG/CP relationship, resulting in more spinning.  A deployed parachute can really move the effective CP to the rear and produce good stability.

Offline jl222

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2014, 01:59:09 PM »
It is not a matter of semantics, it is a matter of being unclear and confused about what exactly the CP and CG actually are.  Sid and JL222 need to review and come to grips with their definitions.  Attempting to apply them while misusing them, not surprisingly, leads to an erroneous understanding of the situation.  Ascribing aero forces to the CG instead of the CP is the root of their problem.

At Bonneville there are essentially two sets of forces acting on the vehicle to maintain or disturb directional control.  They are the tractive forces generated by the tires interacting with the surface, and the aero forces acting on the body.  At slow speeds the tractive forces dominate and directional control is easily maintained via the steering system.  As speeds rise and aero loads increase, the tractive requirements also increase.  There comes a point that the tires lose traction with the surface, spinning (with sufficient horsepower), and with that, a loss of directional control.  At that point tractive forces are negligible and aero forces are substantial.  The aero drag forces are acting as if through the CP to slow down the vehicle while the inertial forces due to the mass of the vehicle, acting at the CG, are trying to continue down the course.  If the CG is in front of the CP, the mass is essentially pulling the vehicle down the course in a stable manner.  With the CG behind the CP the situation is unstable until the vehicle rotates to the point that the CG is in front of the CP.  (Putting aside the fact that the CP location while travelling backwards is probably not in the same location as going forward) The spin unfortunately introduces rotational inertia forces which may overpower the possibly tenuous stability of the CG/CP relationship, resulting in more spinning.  A deployed parachute can really move the effective CP to the rear and produce good stability.


  YEAH, no shit. Its you that doesn't understand the question or doesn't want to answer it.

  You remind me of the engineers in the 50ths that said a dragster could never go more than 150mph in the 1/4 mile.

 You need to understand that wings and spoilers increase down force from aero loads changing CP VS CG.

          JL222

Offline jl222

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2014, 02:12:49 PM »
I've spent a lot of time over the last 10 years explaining vehicle dynamics to student mechanical engineers that have had little real work experience with vehicles of any kind… So, I'll wade in on this:

The center of Mass (Gravity) is an imaginary point where aLL the Mass (weight) of a vehicle  can be considered to be concentrated. It only changes when components (fuel for example) are consumed or moved about the vehicle (relocating a battery).

When static and level, the CG location determines how much of the vehicles mass is supported by each wheel (tire loading). This in turn, determines the traction available for each wheel.

Aero package "Downforce" increases the vehicle's "TIRE LOADING" (traction)where the aero package is located, but it does not increase the Mass of the vehicle (except for what the air directing devices actually weigh of course).

Aerodynamic device downforce is very sensitive to the  "relative wind" flowing over or through them.. Tire Loading can suddenly go away when a aero device no longer has the relative wind properly flowing over it from the normal direction…..

I hope this helps some to see the difference.

Robert "Smitty" Smith


  So the added weight to the car which is then transferred to the tires doesn't increase the mass [or weight]?

             JL222

Offline Sumner

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2014, 02:31:45 PM »
.... So the added weight to the car which is then transferred to the tires doesn't increase the mass [or weight]?

No, because it is a force not a weight, you did not add weight to the car you are subjecting it to a downward force.  Does your weight go up when walking or biking into a strong wind?

Sumner

Offline jl222

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2014, 03:30:11 PM »
.... So the added weight to the car which is then transferred to the tires doesn't increase the mass [or weight]?

No, because it is a force not a weight, you did not add weight to the car you are subjecting it to a downward force.  Does your weight go up when walking or biking into a strong wind?

Sumner

  So down force is not measured in lbs?

           JL222

 Well devils don't have wings, but if they had inverted wings standing on a scale, into a head wind, wouldn't their weight register more?

Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: CP vs CG
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2014, 03:50:45 PM »
Sometimes we all (myself included) confuse pure theoretical science and precise definitions with actual observations. It's somewhat like comparing Newtonian physics with Einsteinian physics. Newton was correct as far as he went but there are other factors at play as speed increases. A similar issue as we add aerodynamic forces and roll pitch and yaw. The observable results are that the "effective locations" resultants are not static. That's what control surfaces on aircraft do, they change the forces acting on the plane.