Saving the Salt

[sofadriver]

Don't believe everything you read!
  Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats

  Since 1998, 10,700,000 tons of salt pumped onto the salt flats. Truck and trailer at 50,000lbs or 25 tons = how many truck
(equivalent) loads delivered?  428,000 truck loads YEA RIGHT.

  Save The Salt...Don't believe every thing your told.

               JL222

  Looking for how much a cubic yard of salt weighs to figure out how much area 10,700,000 tons of salt covers, I came across
a density chart which had different materials listed in lbs. per cu ft. Salt was 75lbs per cu ft. As their is 27 cu ft per cu yd,
75 X 27=2025 lbs per yd just over a ton

  So 10,700,000 tons of salt also equal 10,700,000 cu yds. of salt 

  1 acre is 43,560 sq ft, divided into 10,700,000 =245 acres of salt 3 ft deep, at 4 in thick its 9 times the area or 2205 acres.
  2 in is 4410 acres.

  Yeah Right, where is it?

                          JL222

I didn't recheck your figures but lets say that the race/pit/and other nearby areas are 2 miles wide by 10 miles long.  That is 20 square miles or 12,800 acres of area that the lay-down salt could settle over (and I think it is even more area than that).  If so then 10 million tons isn't going to add much thickness.

Personally I think the lay-down just helped to slow the decrease in thickness due to the mining and obviosly there needs to be a lot more laid back down,

Sumner

I think someone's trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

No way in the world have they put 10 million tons of salt back.  JL222 did the truckloads math already.  When they say 10 million tons they're obviously talking about salty water not salt crystals (you can't pump salt crystals).  Is this pumping happening all year long?  If it was only being done when the flats were already flooded then the suspended salt could mix with the surface water and spread out over the surface.  If it's done when the surface is dry (and doesn't spread out) then it can only be soaking right back down into the aquifer.   Intrepids's pumps need to be putting that salty water back on the surface because this stuff's not going to grow up from underground.  Perhaps running the pumps only when there's standing water on the flats would help.  Maybe the surface irrigation system I pictured a few pages back.

One thing is for sure, if the emphasis and concerns don't switch to the salt flat's surface soon, racing at Bonneville is pretty much over.  

[Robert Rampton]

You can thank Mike McNish compiled this list of TV reports generated from the Educational Outreach to the Utah public and government officials. You will need Flash player to view.

Here are three links to the TV Coverage from the event at Totem’s 9/9/15:


Good 4 Utah, Kimberly Nelson

http://www.good4utah.com/news/race-teams-raise-caution-flag-after-another-event-is-cancelled-at-bonneville-salt-flats





KSL 5 News, Jed Boal

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=36448577&nid=148&title=racers-want-restoration-plan-for-salt-at-bonneville&s_cid=queue-9

 

Fox 13 News, Jeff McAdam

http://fox13now.com/2015/09/09/group-gathers-to-discuss-efforts-to-save-the-salt-preserve-racing-at-bonneville-salt-flats/
 

[jl222]

Don't believe everything you read!
  Sid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonneville_Salt_Flats

  Since 1998, 10,700,000 tons of salt pumped onto the salt flats. Truck and trailer at 50,000lbs or 25 tons = how many truck
(equivalent) loads delivered?  428,000 truck loads YEA RIGHT.

  Save The Salt...Don't believe every thing your told.

               JL222

  Looking for how much a cubic yard of salt weighs to figure out how much area 10,700,000 tons of salt covers, I came across
a density chart which had different materials listed in lbs. per cu ft. Salt was 75lbs per cu ft. As their is 27 cu ft per cu yd,
75 X 27=2025 lbs per yd just over a ton

  So 10,700,000 tons of salt also equal 10,700,000 cu yds. of salt  

  1 acre is 43,560 sq ft, divided into 10,700,000 =245 acres of salt 3 ft deep, at 4 in thick its 9 times the area or 2205 acres.
  2 in is 4410 acres.

  Yeah Right, where is it?

                          JL222

I didn't recheck your figures but lets say that the race/pit/and other nearby areas are 2 miles wide by 10 miles long.  That is 20 square miles or 12,800 acres of area that the lay-down salt could settle over (and I think it is even more area than that).  If so then 10 million tons isn't going to add much thickness.

Personally I think the lay-down just helped to slow the decrease in thickness due to the mining and obviosly there needs to be a lot more laid back down,

Sumner

I think someone's trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

No way in the world have they put 10 million tons of salt back.  JL222 did the truckloads math already.  When they say 10 million tons they're obviously talking about salty water not salt crystals (you can't pump salt crystals).  Is this pumping happening all year long?  If it was only being done when the flats were already flooded then the suspended salt could mix with the surface water and spread out over the surface.  If it's done when the surface is dry (and doesn't spread out) then it can only be soaking right back down into the aquifer.   Intrepids's pumps need to be putting that salty water back on the surface because this stuff's not going to grow up from underground.  Perhaps running the pumps only when there's standing water on the flats would help.  Maybe the surface irrigation system I pictured a few pages back.

One thing is for sure, if the emphasis and concerns don't switch to the salt flat's surface soon, racing at Bonneville is pretty much over.  

 Yeah , the wool. But if you read the link above it does say salt [not salt brine].
  Even if it was salt, its not enough.
  The area of the salt flats that needs to be built up needs to be determined and the amount of salt brine needed (to dry to salt) supplied.
   There was mention of berms to keep salt brine in areas needed.
   And if they could grade a drainage ditch and berm along the edge of the salt flats to keep mud from washing onto the flats
 might help.
  This mud on the flats seems fairly recent I don't recall the problem 10 yrs or more ago.

               JL222

                              

[Milwaukee Midget]

Tonnage and numbers not withstanding, I'm still not clear as to where the water Intrepid is using to return salt to the flats is coming from.  If the method they are using is pumping freshwater from wells and aquifers and turning it into brine in order to transport salt from south of I-80 to the flats, it raises a question about that being sustainable.

I think I'm cautioning that if indeed, fresh well water is being utilized in this transfer system, and it gets to the point that freshwater levels are being negatively impacted, that would put a complete stop to the pumping project, and we're the ones who will get labeled as the bad guys.

Conversely, if a water collection and retention system could be built utilizing runoff from the mountains, it might prevent additional mud from reaching the salt and supply a transport medium to return salt to the flats.

Of course, the immense scale of the salt flats means engineering an environmentally sound plumbing solution that meets everyone's needs is going to be hugely expensive, with no guarantee of success.

[Sumner]

......Perhaps running the pumps only when there's standing water on the flats would help....

Exactly what has been done when they are in lay-down mode and their pumps are working which hasn't always been the case.  

Again 10 million tons isn't very much when we consider the area that it spreads over when the salt is under water which is larger than the 2 miles by 10 miles I mentioned above.  

Also the cycle that has gone on over thousands of years is the salt goes under water in the winter normally.  The water does take some of the salt into solution but as the water evaporates going into summer the salt goes out of solution and is redeposited back on the surface.  Usually not exactly in the same place as the salt flats aren't totally flat as the wind pushes the water different places where it then evaporates and leaves the salt behind.  Thus the need each year to look for the thickest salt to lay out the courses on.

The lay-down just adds water that has salt in solution (the brine) to the natural water that has dissolved salt in it.  Now when the brine and natural water evaporates salt will be redeposited.  Since the potash has been taken out along with some other minerals the salt's composition isn't the same as it use to be but still we have had some awful good racing surfaces after the lay-down was started where before they were really deteriorating.

Sumner

[Seldom Seen Slim]

I haven't been saying much as this topic moves along, but I do know that one group is thinking of putting construction fencing - that two-foot-high waterproof tarp/drape stuff that surrounds job projects to reduce runoff and so on) around about one-third of the total area that we consider for racing.  A long and kinda skinny area -- what, maybe 2 miles by 10 miles or so?  Then put the salt/brine/pumped stuff, whatever, into that smaller area and keep it confined while it evaporates and accumulates.  The last I heard about it was when I was at the Mojave Mile.  Will let you know or will get more from them and post it myself.

[Sumner]

..... I'm still not clear as to where the water Intrepid is using to return salt to the flats is coming from. ....

Brackish-water wells (see below)...



Also a quote from the BLM paper ( http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.html  ... see "2002 Salt Laydown Project Paper"  ) .....

http://In 1991, Reilly and
STS jointly funded a salt-replenishment feasibility
study that resulted in a salt-laydown facility plan
(Bingham, 1991). According to the plan, sodium chloride
brine would be pumped out onto the BSF at a rate
of 6,000 gallons per minute (gpm), 24-hours per day,
for six months (November - April) during each year of
the program. This experimental program was anticipated
to have an initial life of at least five years.
Based on the engineering design, up to 7.5 million
tons of salt could be deposited during a five-year period
over a 28-square mile area. According to Bingham
(1991, p. 2), this would result in an additional saltcrust
thickness of about 0.4 inches per year.

Based on the 1991 salt-replenishment feasibility
study, BLM and Reilly entered into a salt-laydown
agreement in 1995. Under the laydown agreement,
Reilly financed the installation and operation of a
$1,000,000 salt-laydown facility, and BLM and Reilly
initiated a cooperative monitoring agreement to measure
the amount of salt delivered to BSF each year of
the program. To ensure the pumped brine meets saltlaydown-
design specifications, Reilly and BLM independently
sample and analyze the brine being pumped
onto BSF. The Laydown Project began delivering
brine to BSF on November 1, 1997

I don't think they ever were able to pump for  6 months without experiencing equipment failure but did do it for longer than the initial 5 year program.  Still one has to remember that due to the wind and such the salt lay-down isn't a consistent thickness over the entire 28 square miles and some of that area isn't our racing surface.  That lay-down would of potentially added 2 inches to the thickness but if they were also mining some away at the same time it might be a wash or worst but at least some went back that wouldn't of been going back without the program.  Thank you Save the Salt for getting something done during that period.

Sumner

[nrhs sales]

Monte, thanks for the report.
One thing that concerns me is that from our little perspective as racers we seem to be the only ones concerned about the Salt Flats. Where is the outrage from the rest of the public? These are public lands, a national treasure, a "managed" land by the BLM. It is used for all kinds of things such as movies, commercials, photography, etc.

I don't think we will get much sympathy from the public if we whine that we are losing a racing track. To them we are just rich tycoons who only build cars and motorcycles at our leisure and then jet to Paris for a weekend. The reality TV shows that focus on those oddballs building cars and bikes do us no favors. To the public we a tiny minority who needs no sympathy.

So instead of focusing on how the RACERS are losing something they want, what about educating the public and politicians to see that the NATION is losing a treasure? Something along the lines that the California Redwood Forest is being logged. It is analogous.

Don

I agree 100%.  Be careful what we wish for.  If the wrong environmental group gets behind this they will just push the government to close the flats to everything to include racing in order to protect it.  Is that what we want?

[nrhs sales]

I haven't been saying much as this topic moves along, but I do know that one group is thinking of putting construction fencing - that two-foot-high waterproof tarp/drape stuff that surrounds job projects to reduce runoff and so on) around about one-third of the total area that we consider for racing.  A long and kinda skinny area -- what, maybe 2 miles by 10 miles or so?  Then put the salt/brine/pumped stuff, whatever, into that smaller area and keep it confined while it evaporates and accumulates.  The last I heard about it was when I was at the Mojave Mile.  Will let you know or will get more from them and post it myself.

I wonder if they could also work with Intrepid to truck some of the raw salt they have stored into that area as well? That would seem like a win-win for both sides.

I really feel we racers need to be working with Intrepid to solve this problem not trying to shut them down. I just do not trust the government to fix this for us and if we treat Intrepid as the enemy I do not see that ending well.

[BurtonBrown]

This is posted in another thread too😊

To all

The meeting yesterday at lands end of was actually at 9am and Rick Vesco and Roger Lessman did a real good job organizing it and getting the right people there. There were reps from Intrepid, BLM, DNR, Utah Goveners office, Save the Salt, Press, university geologist, Racers and some spectators.
I personally flew out from Wisconsin just for this meeting. It lasted until about noon that was followed by a closed door meeting in Wendover.
I can only tell you that this is a good start as it seems there are quite a few concerned about this now including the Gov.s office. There are 6-7 different proposals we understood that were being discussed at the closed door meeting and I assume they will be shared here shortly.
We obviously have to work together at this so everyone keep a positive attitude and things will start to happen.
Sid and I have lots of pics videos we will be sharing.
Burton Brown

[Sumner]

This is posted in another thread too😊

To all

The meeting yesterday at lands end of was actually at 9am and Rick Vesco and Roger Lessman did a real good job organizing it and getting the right people there. There were reps from Intrepid, BLM, DNR, Utah Goveners office, Save the Salt, Press, university geologist, Racers and some spectators.
I personally flew out from Wisconsin just for this meeting. It lasted until about noon that was followed by a closed door meeting in Wendover.
I can only tell you that this is a good start as it seems there are quite a few concerned about this now including the Gov.s office. There are 6-7 different proposals we understood that were being discussed at the closed door meeting and I assume they will be shared here shortly.
We obviously have to work together at this so everyone keep a positive attitude and things will start to happen.
Sid and I have lots of pics videos we will be sharing.
Burton Brown

Thanks for the update and also for personally putting in such an effort in time and expense on your part to cover the event.  I'm sure we will all be looking forward to any videos you and Sid would share with us and any other information.

Thanks,

Sumner

[SPARKY]

SCTA     Way to go guys!!!!

I want to give a great big thank you to volunteer efforts of the SCTA under Bill Lattin's leadership--  for the EL meet under what must have been the results of great efforts with the BLM!!

Thanks guys we get to race because of your efforts---THANKS

[velocity]

I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.

You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.

[jl222]

I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.

You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.

  If you think like that of us, it shows how arrogant you are.

                  JL222

[Stainless1]

I just landed back home after a week in Salt Lake and Bonneville meeting with, and talking to decision makers and folks with influence. I'll have pointed report for all but got to say some the recent commentary seems like it is either wrought of screaming frustration or mind-altering chemicals.
The Utah Alliance has busted its collective butt to get an enormous bunch of players to the table.

You folks gotta give us a chance, not make this harder.

Yep... spoken like a true non-racer