Author Topic: Saving the Salt  (Read 548149 times)

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Offline half-fast racer

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #870 on: August 19, 2015, 11:12:00 AM »
Where is the board meeting? I would be very interested in attending and volunteering in any capacity that would contribute to Saving the Salt.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #871 on: August 19, 2015, 11:48:02 AM »
It is easy for people to now say they didn't do enough or they should of done it in a different way but the truth of the matter is those behind STS saw what we now see 15 years or more ago and started to do something about it then not now.  

And Sumner, that goes to a point I made earlier.

15 years in a volunteer organization will drag anybody down, and the evidence looks to me like they clearly need help - physical bodies doing tasks - to further communicate the message beyond the converted.

Stuart mentioned a soon-to-be-released update regarding what's being done by STS.  In that news release, I'm hoping to see a call for volunteers and a list of talking points that can keep all of us interested and concerned on topic with others.

I've been offered two opportunities to show the Midget this weekend - the Cheaters Car Club annual rod show and the Milwaukee Masterpiece.  If I were to do so, and wanted to provide information regarding STS to people asking about Bonneville, I don't know what I would say right now. 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

velocity

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #872 on: August 20, 2015, 02:17:16 AM »
Robin - I hunted down that Intrepid PDF and think the entire book is focused on reopening closed mines to extract more potash with another method than was previously used. None of the images are form Bonneville and the process discussed mimics Wendover's evap operation but the ponds are located in a totally different geography. i am betting Intrepid is applying Wendover methods to other places.

Still, the report bears further examination which I will do, thanks for the heads up on this. Trio is a product only availble through NM mines and has a special mineral component, the name of which escapes me now, but it is exclusive to that geography to make Trio.

Sirius has its hands full with the National property - its part of the National Trust isn;t it? Then that is the "Sierra Club " of the UK. Big fight. Really big. I'd expect Mrs. Bliss to show up. . .

However, Intrepid's business forecast DOES wrinkle my brow and THAT bears much closer scrutiny to see just where Intrepid is envisions a profit-taking uptick.

Brother, all your little sporty cars must be running just fine for you to have extra time to sort this stuff. Tell Sue I love you but she can keep you.

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #873 on: August 20, 2015, 04:03:21 AM »
Louise - yes, that's my reading of the situation as well, supported by a statement about company history that when they were formed they bought the Moab and Wendover plant so that they could learn about that technology and apply it to "depleted" mines. Which is very savvy. Here is what they say on their website:

•Two potash facilities in Utah—the Moab Mine and the Wendover Facility. The Moab Mine uses solution mining methods to extract potash and has productive capacity to produce 100,000 tons of potash annually. The Wendover Facility collects potash from natural brines and has productive capacity to produce 100,000 tons of potash annually. Both of these facilities use low-cost solar evaporation to recover potash.

•Two development assets in Carlsbad, New Mexico—the HB Mine and the North Mine. The HB Mine is an idled potash mine that we are in the process of reopening as a solution mine. The North Mine is another idled underground potash mine that we may choose to reopen in the future and that already has in place mine shafts and much of the transportation and utility infrastructure required for operation.

I'd also emphasise that my earlier point about companies "walking all over you if you let them without meaning to" doesn't mean that I think that Intrepid are setting out to deliberately take advantage of the local community, the racers or to deliberately ruin the race surface. That's the last thing any reputable company would do. In my experience, it's usually the case that even companies who operate completely within their remit sometimes produce unintended negative consequences in other areas. Point those consequences out to them openly and fairly, explain the impact of what they are doing and they will usually, like Intrepid, do as much as they can to mitigate those effects. That's what the BLM and STS have done successfully with them until now. But - situations change and evolve and the fact is that apart from a reduced area around the International Course, the area now available to racers is unstable and unreliable. Whatever the cause or causes are, right now, many people are pointing the finger at Intrepid, so imo it is in their best interests not only to continue the existing program, but to push it right up their agenda (and do so more publicly) so that the effects of their operation are clearly understood and shared. Failure to do that risks negative publicity for them (particularly if the hard core environmentalists pile in uninvited) whether they are responsible for ruining the salt flats or not. That's not a threat, that imo is what could happen if the salt continues to disappear. Do all they can to publicly demonstrate that they are participating in ramped up urgent action to identify the root causes and then save the salt while at the same time continuing their operations and they'll be hailed as a progressive company who really do care about more than profit. That reputation could help them in future ventures elsewhere. Fail to do that and people will continue to paint them as the bad guys who "stole the salt".

Of course, it may be that changed weather conditions are the real cause, it's nothing to do with Intrepid and racing at Bonneville will simply be a thing of the past. Or it may be that conditions will improve and things will be back to where they were 20 years ago. But I guess that's not a risk worth taking so hats off to STS for all their efforts and all those who want to join with them to ramp up the program. I hope you find a way of working together and channelling all those ideas. If I lived that side of the water I'd certainly be offering to help.

Robin

 

velocity

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #874 on: August 21, 2015, 02:08:12 PM »
Robin-

YOU ARE HELPING! A voice of reason enumerating facts and offering unbiased opinion and summary on said facts. Most don't know of your corporate background which I consider a treasure chest of wisdom because I never run in such circles for any meaningful period of time other than short-term contracts.

So far, my first-hand experiences and observations with assorted decision-makers and influencers are precisely as you describe.

The weather HAS a played bigger hand this season, but not an unprecedented one, only a repeat compounded by - hydrologically speaking -- the salt crust settling in an area not desired by the racing community. What I mean by this harks back to the methaphor of describing the salt surface being the top most portion in a very shallow custard bowl. This crust is dynamically linked to the amount of rain water, wind force and direction during winter months that dictates where the crystals will "settle down" each season. And the settling down is further impacted by the temperatures and duration of heat in the summer months.

All this makes it damn hard to point a damning finger in one direction. Tom Burkland has brought up some VERY GOOD points about the math associated with all the talk about flow back and forth. I believe it is time to perform a forensic audit on the numbers and am working with folks who have the brains cells in that area to help. Wanna join that little knitting party?

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #875 on: August 22, 2015, 10:10:29 AM »
Here's my math for the flow without the chemistry:

In 1970 NWS > SWS
In 2015 NWS < SWS

NWS = White stuff north of the interstate.
SWS = White stuff south of the interstate.
> = Greater than
< = Less than

Can this be referred to as evidence?

If we're doing more studies how about some core samples in the harvest ponds?
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Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #876 on: August 22, 2015, 12:35:50 PM »
I would also like to see tonnage reports of all products from all company's that have been (mining) from the BSF since the beginning. Salt, potash, combined waste or what ever they call it has been shipped by the 100 car X 55 ton per car train load for years. It boggles my mind how they can haul away and sell millions of tons of minerals over the years and have millions of tons piled up on their property and claim they don't know where it went or if they are responsible.

Ron
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Offline saltwheels262

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #877 on: August 22, 2015, 01:41:58 PM »
Seems like those train cars might hold more than 55 ton a piece.
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Offline Dakin Engineering

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #878 on: August 22, 2015, 01:42:59 PM »
From the BLM report;

quote>
White and Terrazas, 2006 page 26 concluded that “If brine from the shallow brine aquifer is removed from the Salt Flats north of I-80 through the federal-lease-collection ditch, then the total ion mass north of the interstate is decreased by some finite amount that would need to be replaced to maintain the ion mass balance. Consequently, if this withdrawal were to continue for decades without replenishment, one could reasonably conclude that the salt-crust mass north of I-80 could eventually be affected and show some level of impact.”
 <end quote

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Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #879 on: August 22, 2015, 02:27:36 PM »
You're right. Depended on memory, at my age not good. Hopper cars hold 125 tons which makes it worse.

Ron
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Offline BobDcuda

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #880 on: August 22, 2015, 08:08:39 PM »
SCTA has just announced on Facebook that World Finals has been cancelled... :-(

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #881 on: August 22, 2015, 08:09:56 PM »
Hey, we need a railroad person to be sure, but I think I remember that the "hopper" cars (they're not grasshoppers to those of you completely not in the know) are inscribed with a number like 225,000# -- which I think is gross weight when loaded - at least most of 'em are these days.  And then they're something like - what, 55,000 or 70,000 empty -- and that leaves unm, ahh, 150,000# =/- or 75 tons.  I know -- picky, picky, but I've seen about a zillion railcars and I wanted to finally have some use for the stuff I've been seeing on them.  Not the graffiti, you know, but the "legitimate" stuff. :-D
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Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #882 on: August 22, 2015, 09:28:57 PM »
As A retired railroad man I found the following information the modern GATX company Hopper car sizes range from 2,300 to 8,000 cf, and are offered with gross weight capacity up to 286,000 lb. These railcars can accommodate a wide variety of commodities including gravel, sand, coal, petroleum coke, wood chips, scrap metal, steel coils, and other steel products.
  Covered Hoppers have near identical capacitys.  Thats a whole lot of material leaving the north side of I-80 in Wendover.  :-(
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Offline RidgeRunner

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #883 on: August 22, 2015, 09:38:14 PM »
      Hopper cars 70 -110 ton capacity.  http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/equipment/railroad-equipment/

      Some newer hoppers have more capacity depending on commodity being hauled.  Usually cars in salt service are older and it's one of the last uses they see.  Salt isn't partial, goes after them just like it does race rigs and support vehicles.

       I type slow.

                                     Ed

Offline Black Rose Racing

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #884 on: August 23, 2015, 12:58:16 PM »
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 10:02:16 PM by Black Rose Racing »