Author Topic: Saving the Salt  (Read 548084 times)

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Offline Dakin Engineering

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #855 on: August 17, 2015, 08:38:29 PM »
Hotrod,
 You are correct, this petition will not restore the Salt Flats in a timely matter.
It expires after 30 days. The next one will include restoration. Watch for it.

 It is my contention that Intrepid will continue their rope-a-dope until the Laydown Project report comes out in 2018.
Any remedial action will commence with the new lease in 2023.

It's in the report.

Sam
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #856 on: August 17, 2015, 09:11:21 PM »
Hot Rod has eloquently expressed some concerns I had when considering signing the petition.  I certainly don't have it all figured out, but it's good to get a report from STS that things are moving along.

I, along with most of you, think it would be beneficial to the cause if STS issued a monthly or quarterly report of what they were doing.  Because of ongoing negotiations, I'd go along with the idea that they can't disclose everything, but it's reassuring to know they are working at it.

Stan
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #857 on: August 17, 2015, 09:26:44 PM »
Video comments . . .

I'm going down to turn myself in to the feds as Brenda compares what the racers have done to the salt to the miners role in the problem.  I know, for a fact, that over the years I have redistributed pounds of salt out of the basin.  I never thought that it would compare to the daily train cars that left, but I guess our yearly excursions are a major cause of the depletion.

And I'm wondering how the railroad does it.  The BLM guy states that the miners are returning more than they take out.  How they keep those rail cars on the tracks full of negative weight, I don't know.

Stan
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline Avanti Kid

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #858 on: August 17, 2015, 10:20:43 PM »
That was a good video and our racers had a chance to give their inputs, I hope the average citizen watches it and wants to help us racers save the salt!!
Original owner of 1963 Avanti; Age 84
2006 Bonneville 200 MPH Club Member
Canyon Country, CA
215.6 mph 289 CI Studebaker engine

Offline rickv

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #859 on: August 17, 2015, 10:37:17 PM »
Hot Rod has said it correctly: We do not want mining to stop. They don't need our salt and we don't need their potash. We want mining to continue so Intrepid can keep its workforce intact to work on the Reclamation, mitigation plan. Its relatively simple to return the salt and prevent further loss. And it can begin immediately. That's why the Utah Coalition is working with Save the Salt and with Utah politicians - including Utah BLM officials. The State of Utah does NOT want the salt to disappear!! Many in the Utah government had no idea how bad it has gotten out there, but now they do! They are alarmed and eager to know how to help. So hold on folks...I think change is in the wind!

Offline Dakin Engineering

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #860 on: August 17, 2015, 11:10:00 PM »
Rick,
  I have no objection to Intrepid staying in business, with TWO exceptions; 1) No more pumping for the Alluvial Fan aquifer OR the Shallow Brine aquifer. And 2) block the drainage ditches.

If they can continue with rainfall and the deep aquifer, fine.

Sam
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Offline jl222

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #861 on: August 18, 2015, 10:15:01 AM »
  Its been many years since I saw the results of hydraulic gold mining in the Idaho stream bottoms, no soil left just piles of rocks, trees growing hear and there. This was in the mountains near McCall and Burgdall sp.  

  Miners were required to change their ways after this Hydraulic ruin.

  Not much difference, no soil, no salt.

  Pictures need to be taken, compared and presented to the salt coalition AND the BLM.

   JL222
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 10:28:06 AM by jl222 »

velocity

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #862 on: August 18, 2015, 03:52:11 PM »
I am heartened to see racing community coming to grasp the multi-faceted situation surrounding the restoration of the Bonneville Salt Flats. The local residents, workers and economy of both Wendovers (UT & NV) are inextricably linked to the potash mining. To find common ground in which all might move forward together with the goal of restoration is the only path worth taking. The weak link has always been the fractured front from the racing community.

Unlike a one unified voice that can thunder with authority, the sanctioning groups populated by independent-minded volunteers makes for little more than a whole lotta noise if not coalesced into single voice that elected representatives, government officials and associated industry can listen to in order to gain knowledge to make informed decisions  to then call for decisive action.

Know this: It is far more important for the racers to form a united front than it is to save the salt. Absent unification, the "noise" is easily dismissed. Boisterous bully tactics might make someone feel important for a short time, but it grievously hurts the reclamation program by closing doors that salt supporters desperately need to remain open and welcoming.

Voice your displeasure, opinions and discoveries with Save the Salt, or at very least with the leader of your favorite sanctioning body. And do it in writing. Verbal chatter gets lost and often misunderstood down the line.  

Save the Salt is now very mindful of its terrible error of not communicating with racers. The communication is improving.  

To that end, I have spent three weeks culling the best out of all concerned parties to find that path forward. I will shortly have a report of what is in swing and when a few more details get sorted be able to announce a single-action event that will provide immediate improvement to the north side Speedway.

I close by stating VERY STRONGLY I am not in charge, don't want to be in charge and am diligently working with like-minded and activist individuals in all sectors to get traction on this horrible decline of the "great white dyno."  

I know this possible.

We managed to reverse the miserable FIA situation with the same approach. Today, world records get certified in weeks, not years becasue a way forward was found working in respectful unison.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 04:01:17 PM by velocity »

Offline RogerL

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #863 on: August 18, 2015, 04:40:23 PM »
Good comments Louise. I am increasingly optimistic there is going to be some progress towards rehabbing and preserving our beloved salt flats.

Offline Dakin Engineering

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #864 on: August 18, 2015, 10:32:07 PM »
Planning reconstructive surgery is fine, BUT THE PATIENT IS STILL BLEEDING TO DEATH!

Sam
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Offline V4F STR 60

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #865 on: August 18, 2015, 11:24:39 PM »
Aerial photo comparison 1984 to 2014, for those of you who still think we'll be racing on the Salt if something doesn't happen VERY quickly.
Montana Dodge Boys Fast Four Special
1928 Dodge Brothers Vintage Flathead Four Cylinder Roadster & Lakester

Landspeed Records

Bonneville

2009 V4F/STR 115.681
2009 V4F/GR 116.439
2009 V4F/FR 117.597
2010 V4F/BSTR 127.352
2012 V4F/BFMR 130.843
2013 V4F/BGMR 142.956
2013 V4F/BFMR 143.254
2013 V4F/BGR 138.395
2013 V4F/BFR 138.984

El Mirage

2016 V4F/BGMR 140.961

www.facebook.com/MontanaDodgeBoys
www.fastfourspecial.com

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #866 on: August 19, 2015, 12:09:21 AM »
I still remain concerned about the Mesa operation. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGtr1TXaNAE

While it is physically located north and west of the Speedway, if they are permitted to operate, how do we know they aren't drawing off of the same deep aquifers that Intrepid is?  Given as little we know about the current aquifers being utilized by Intrepid, and as unsure even the professionals are about the intricacies of Bonneville, I find it incredible to think that anybody can say with any certainty the effects of another potash extraction firm in the basin will have no effect on the salt.

I can guarantee this, though.  If another potash extraction firm opens adjacent to the salt flats, it will invariably drive down the cost of the product, which in no way will help Intrepid restore the salt.

I would encourage the BLM, the University, Intrepid and STS to include in ANY report or plan that they are putting together to take into account the potential environmental and fiscal effects upon a restoration that another local mine might inflict. 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Robin UK

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #867 on: August 19, 2015, 05:37:59 AM »
First off – apologies for the lengthy post, secondly, please don’t read this as somebody trying to preach. I know there is nothing worse than that – especially from a Brit.  :-D  But since I am a bit detached from the situation, maybe I can see things slightly differently. I hope it is of interest in any case.

I think that Chris and others who believe that pressure must be maintained or even ramped up on Intrepid are correct.  And while I understand the sensitivity of the situation, imho only that pressure will make them realise that they have to be held to account. It’s a normal dynamic for any company and as has been noted by others, they are operating legally and fully within their remit. Take a look at this set of slides entitled Ingredients For Growth published May 2015 and posted as a PDF on their website. It details only how they aim to drive up both yield and profit.
 
http://investors.intrepidpotash.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=218952&p=irol-calendar

Slide 14 is interesting because it shows that solar evaporation is linked to increased profit.  Elsewhere they note that when Intrepid was formed they bought the Wendover facility specifically for that technology and the affect it would have on their overall profit/cost situation. They are now using that technology (brine washing Slide 15 and 16) to recover even more potash from mines thought to have been exhausted. They also list those mines and facilities close to end of life and Bonneville isn’t listed.

Conclusion – the Wendover facility is easier to operate compared to deep mines, more profitable and is part of their long term plans. Therefore, it is important to demonstrate, A: that they are serious about continuing their salt recovery program and B: that the recovered salt without all the potash and other things extracted by them will provide a surface that is as durable as the one with all those elements still intact. Unless and until that’s proven, then granting a licence for another company to mine potash is taking an even bigger risk imo.

If you go back to the slides and the Intrepid website, you’ll find no mention of the Salt Flats recovery program let alone read about how important it is to them. It’s currently off their radar to all intents and purposes. Corporate Social Responsibility ought to extend beyond providing economic benefit imo, but it’s an attitude that changes slowly and often only as a result of outside pressure by those affected to make it happen. It’s something I noted ever more frequently in my last 10 years before retiring. There is only a brief reference in Core Values on the About US section of the Intrepid website, but it’s primarily about such things as delivering profit and corporate governance (proving that the company operates within their remit).  Quote:

Vision
To continually deliver value to our shareholders, employees and employees’ communities.

We’ll do this through operational excellence and profitable capital investments, and by providing high quality products.

Mission
Our mission is to grow our production base to deliver 1.5 million tons of potash and 500,000 tons of Trio® per year, while continually lowering our per-ton cash costs and simultaneously improving the health and safety of our employees and operations

In the note I sent to the BLM following the general request by Louise, I noted that my experience of such things in the UK is that (probably because we are a small island) our response to anything that affects the environment is usually more robust and usually led by environmental pressure groups. I noted anti-fracking protests which have been so successful that the government has now stepped in to limit the time for a decision by local authorities to consider and grant/reject licences for test drilling. But it is still primarily a local decision with the effect on the environment always part of the equation. Digging around some more on the Intrepid website I found reference to a mine operated by them in the UK and coming to end of life (Slide 34). That in turn led to some interesting stories here in the UK for comparison.

Take a look at these two links and you’ll see that Sirius Minerals PLC are planning a huge and controversial Potash mine here.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/20/sirius-minerals-potash-mine-idUSL1N0Y70G920150520

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-3146394/Sirius-Minerals-celebrates-national-park-potash-plan-approved.html

Even though plans have been approved, they now have to the raise the finance to go ahead because constant pressure from the National Parks, local communities and environmental groups means they can only do it by digging a shaft a mile deep and then a 23 mile long tunnel (as long as the channel tunnel) to take it to a port in an area already used by the chemical industry. All this so that it doesn’t affect a National Park area that frankly, most people in the UK haven’t heard of. Unlike Intrepid, they do have a clear statement on Corporate Social Responsibility and it makes interesting reading because it references the “ten sustainability principles set out by the International Council on Mining and Metals (ICMM)”

http://www.siriusminerals.com/about-us/sirius-in-the-community/

So how does this link to Bonneville? I think it shows that whatever Intrepid are spending on the salt recovery program, it is likely to be small beer compared to operational costs they and their competitors have to incur elsewhere. It also shows that the rewards for them are high enough to continue even when forced to take account of the environment. You don’t have to hug trees, wear tofu based makeup and knit your own vegetables to be concerned about the environment, but if the salt continues to disappear and potash extraction is still unproven as having no affect on this (and the onus ought to be on them to prove it), then sooner or later the environmentalist pressure groups are likely to involve themselves anyway.  A concerted, ramped up course of action by Save The Salt is the best way to avoid that and engage with Intrepid imo, but  I don’t think STS needs to be shy about engaging racers more directly, bringing the results of that pressure to bear on Intrepid or about sharing plans often and openly with racers and the wider community. These are serious players in a competitive market who will walk all over you without even meaning to if you let them but who will respond to pressure if you make them, simply because the business rewards are high.

Hope this helps.

Robin

Offline typo41

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #868 on: August 19, 2015, 10:42:00 AM »
I have noticed that StS has been kicked in the shins a bit lately. Save the Salt is truly a grass roots group that has banging a drum for over 15 years. A drum that was not heard or cared about for many years.
But now we have a coalition that StS is only a part of. And really StS is a bunch of racers back in California, part of the SCTA. And at the SCTA Board meetings we get StS reports. And so every month we hear of the possible good news and we hear of ideas that have been thrown back by Government Agency's.
Does the StS give out information quick and fast? Maybe not as fast as it should, but again just a group of racers trying to do good. By saving the salt we hope to race from many years, yes we want salt to race we are racers. But now I see an undercurrent of Save the Salt because it is a National Treasure, which it is. But by saving The National Treasure will we be forced off the salt we just saved?

What is the focus?

And who will speak of for focus?

This battle almost requires a full time person and staff. Who will chair this hot seat?
Who will pay, with donated time or money?

Board meeting is this Friday, come on down and volunteer, help build the web site, help write letters, help by sitting out in the hot sun at racing events, help by coming and shaking the hands of the early drum beaters they could use the thanks.

It is easy to sit at a computer and bitch, step up to the plate like a few of the people on this forum have done.
Thanks to Louise and even Ron Main for trying and suggesting and giving time.

And for those that are asking what have I done? I was the person that suggested and produced the mail-in cards to Washington and I help with art and photo needs. Yea just small little things but at least I have tried.
Tony Huntimer
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #869 on: August 19, 2015, 10:56:47 AM »
...I have noticed that StS has been kicked in the shins a bit lately. ...

Yep it is time for that to cease.  

It is easy for people to now say they didn't do enough or they should of done it in a different way but the truth of the matter is those behind STS saw what we now see 15 years or more ago and started to do something about it then not now.  Way more than any of us have done then or now.  

We aren't starting from scratch now thanks to them and yes if you are a SCTA club member and get the SCTA monthly minutes through your club you would of seen they are reporting pack to SCTA almost monthly.  I know that some of you will say, "they should of jumped on here and told non-SCTA members also".  Give them a break and let's show a united front in this.  

I'm sure Intrepid is reading this also and I'll bet they are smiling whenever they see the only group, STS, that has actively been taking them to the table for the last 15+ years getting hammered by the very people that STS has been working for,

Sumner