Author Topic: Saving the Salt  (Read 548275 times)

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Offline SPDRACR

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #795 on: August 10, 2015, 08:23:28 PM »
Sumner ...Yes this will be the 11th year.
Nate, the mud on /under the BNI course #1 on avg. is 1 1/2" to 2" thick.
The worst is at the 5 mile notch. there is good hard salt under the mud, it
 on avg. is 2 3/4" to 3" thick, which is close to last years measurements.
The salt is rough from the 4ish mile thru the 7 mile, than it smooths out but is
not very thick.
The interesting thing we found is at the 0mile on the international course 30' from
I-80 there is 3" of brand new hard long crystal salt .
My guess is that the lay down salt was pumped out ran into a 2" thick mud flow and
puddled back towards the Hwy.
Bob, It seems given the right winter that most of this dig in marks repair themselves
We were able to drive down to the 11 1/2 mile on the international course with the truck
but did think any further was worth the gamble.
salt is OK, but the DIRT is where it's at!
Proud 2nd generation Roadster Racer
Muroc 2 club, El Mirage 2 club, Now Bonneville 2 club,       All in a Roadster

Offline Ken Yooper

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #796 on: August 10, 2015, 10:08:37 PM »
Here is a pic taken by me sometime during the summer of 1971 when Eagle Pischer (sp?) was attempting to set their electric land speed record.  This was at mile 6 and there was a lot of mud/dirt present.   Exactly where mile 6 in 1971 relates to the location to mile 6 today is not known by me.    Might be kilo 6  - it has been a while - LOL

So, perhaps there is hope the salt will return once again - -

Best to all - KB

« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:10:35 PM by Ken Yooper »
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.  If it's not worth doing right then it's probably not worth doing at all.  (Andy Granatelli in Gasoline Alley 1964)

Offline desotoman

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #797 on: August 10, 2015, 11:32:50 PM »
Eric and Russ Eyres,

Thank you for taking those measurements and keeping us informed on what you found. Glad to hear you did not get stuck in the mud.

Louise,

Stuart was checking this topic out today as he was logged in when I was reading this topic. So he is checking to see what we have to say. Hooray !!!

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

velocity

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #798 on: August 11, 2015, 12:54:10 AM »
Ken - Would you be able to send me this photo in a higher resolution?

Offline Ken Yooper

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #799 on: August 11, 2015, 02:35:22 AM »
Louise  -

High resolution pic sent - for whatever reason I cannot post high resolution pics here, exceeds the limits or something. 

If at all possible, could you please "repost" the pic here in hi res - for the masses?

I also have one more pic of the course - same general area but little different location along the line -

TIA -

KB
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.  If it's not worth doing right then it's probably not worth doing at all.  (Andy Granatelli in Gasoline Alley 1964)

Offline Sumner

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #800 on: August 11, 2015, 12:53:01 PM »
I ran across the following this morning via a link on USFRA's site and feel that it gives a pretty good overview of when STS was first born and some of the things they have been instrumental in such as the beginning of the salt lay-down project and how they have been linked to SCTA/BNI/USFRA and have collectively worked together to try and improve conditions for us the racers.

Here is a link to the page where you can also find the following that I cut and pasted here along with more and pictures of some of the pumping operation at that time ...

http://saltflats.com/save%20the%20salt.html

==================================================================

Save The Salt, a brief history:

During the (1930-1940) era the Bonneville Salt Flats was able to support the
weight of 10-ton twin-engine streamliners that roared down the 13.5-mile long Race Courses.
The Hot Rods roared onto the salt flats in 1949 with the first Speed Week event and have run every year since.
Of course a few years were missed due to weather.

By the early 1960's the pioneers of Land Speed Racing began to notice
subtle changes in the surface of the raceway.
There were discussions of why the surface seemed to be getting weaker and that this unique body of land was shrinking.
We were able to get only as much as 7 miles of decent salt for our courses, if we were lucky.
It wasn't long before fingers were pointed at the mining industry on the south side of interstate 80.
Owned by Kaiser Chemical, their operations covered some 50 sq. miles of the salt flats.

Rick Vesco, our first chairman of Save The Salt, spearheaded the effort to meet with Utah State and Federal Government officials as well as the Chemical Company to resolve the problem of salt depletion.
The goal was to return the salt that was accumulating in their settling ponds at the mining facility to the Raceway.
These early cries for help continued until 1989 when the Save the Salt
Organization was founded and struggled to achieve recognition as they began to see the heavy toll the mining industry was taking on the salt flats.
In the meantime Kaiser Chemical had sold the operation to Reilly Chemical and a new 20-year lease for mining had been signed.

The once healthy 18 plus inches of salt had become so fragile that the Race
Courses had to be moved farther and farther east.
Running on the long International Race Course was no longer possible.
Reilly Industries was forcing water through canals crisscrossing the flats into their evaporation ponds from which potash was extracted.
It was estimated that the process was taking an estimated 850,000 tons of salt from the flats each year.

The Save the Salt Board has members from the Southern California
Timing Assn (SCTA) / Bonneville Nationals Inc (BNI). and Utah Salt Flats Racers Assn (USFRA).
This group was able to negotiate a restoration agreement in 1997.
Working hand in hand with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and Reilly Chemical Co. they began to work together to return salt from the ponds.

The Lay down Project was to reverse the process by pumping brine water back
onto the salt flats at the rate of 1.5 million tons of salt each year for 5
years. The BLM, Reilly Chemical and the Racers embraced the plan. It was a
giant step forward with Government and Industry working together.

From the beginning of the pumping project racers began to notice changes in the surface.
By the end of the 5-year pumping plan the racers were able to get back to running on the old International Course.
Though not as long, there was a noticeable difference in the hardness and durability of the racecourses and on a few occasions we were able to get as much as an 11 mile course.

Once again the Potash Plant has been sold.
Intrepid Industries is now the owner and has shown an interest in our quest to have a healthy Bonneville Salt Flats and a strong racecourse surface.
They showed their support by once again starting the pumping process the first of February 2005.
We commend them for their efforts.
The Save the Salt Board is committed to working with both the BLM and Intrepid Industries.
While there is still a lot more to be done, our vigilance appears to have paid off, not just for the racing competitors but also by preserving this historical natural treasure, The Bonneville Salt Flats, for future generations to come.

=============================================================

The above of course was written some years back (around 5005) and STS has done much since but I found it interesting to read how and when STS first came about,

Sumner


Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #801 on: August 11, 2015, 01:32:37 PM »
I'm not a specialist just a racer & observer with 27yrs experience on the salt.
 Pumping back into the flats at first increased the quantity of usable real estate but the binder was gone from the mix as we all saw & the salt just crumbled. Logic tells me that was desirable from a mining standpoint because it allowed more product to flow with the brine water.
I wonder did we $hit in our own nest by forcing this issue?
  Sid.

Offline Sumner

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #802 on: August 11, 2015, 01:52:30 PM »
I'm not a specialist just a racer & observer with 27yrs experience on the salt.
 Pumping back into the flats at first increased the quantity of usable real estate but the binder was gone from the mix as we all saw & the salt just crumbled. Logic tells me that was desirable from a mining standpoint because it allowed more product to flow with the brine water.
I wonder did we $hit in our own nest by forcing this issue?
  Sid.

I'll take any of that salt we can get back.  The courses have produced a lot of records since it happened, some of them the fastest speeds ever for a piston powered wheel drive vehicle.  I remember what the salt was like for some years in the late 90's when a number of people question if racing would stop then.  My logic tells me that if they pump back salt without potash in it they are diluting their potential product and will get less potash out of it for the same amount they pump back.

We have to keep in mind that our present problem is one that can't be addressed by  STS or anyone which is mud if it is coming off the mountains.  In the show Rick questioned if it was maybe coming from dikes and if that is the case then maybe that could be addressed.  If the mud wasn't there we would of been racing this week.  Well probably not since we would of been rained on Friday.  Our problems this year and last are weather related,

Sumner

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #803 on: August 11, 2015, 02:36:01 PM »
I think everybody is in agreement that the last two years of heavy rain has put a thin layer of mud on the flats but I think the mud is a second problem on top of the original problem.
If you go over to the north side (drain field) where the last of the white salt is & do a test hole, the salt is actually lighter than the dirt from the runoff & the salt is on top, next down is the dirt/mud from the runoff, next down is the clearish/green salt crystal base that is hard with a slick surface & then that peters out into the brine dirt/mud & the water table. You go through all that in about 3 inches.
Out at the course markers where I test bored I had all that minus the salt on top & you can see that in the video I posted earlier.
I'm not here to disagree with anybody, just give my opinion & show you the facts, take it or leave it.
Here's the video again so you don't have to go hunting. You can see where I scraped the mud layer off & how much salt was not on top of it.
  Sid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q&feature=youtu.be

 

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #804 on: August 11, 2015, 06:17:13 PM »
thanks Sid
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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #805 on: August 11, 2015, 06:40:00 PM »
Here's some more of my trip on Monday Aug 3rd. There is some more of Intrepid's operation still to come including some of the dykes & pumps & that is purely so everybody can better understand the system & I was at no time trespassing on their property.
  Sid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb3-AzddsTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK-ZI2xwFQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HANHe0kcQPU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q

Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #806 on: August 11, 2015, 09:28:58 PM »
Here's some more of my trip on Monday Aug 3rd. There is some more of Intrepid's operation still to come including some of the dykes & pumps & that is purely so everybody can better understand the system & I was at no time trespassing on their property.
  Sid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb3-AzddsTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK-ZI2xwFQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HANHe0kcQPU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q

Here I sit looking at all this and wondering  how such a thin surface can possibly hold together under acceleration. Any wheel spin would certainly tear the thin salt crust exposing the mud man that's not very safe. How sad its come to this.
   Sid your efforts to see for your self is showing many of us there's been a real HUGE disappearance of salt thickness. So much for save the salt seems the salt was actually saved for commercial use in place of recreation!   :x
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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #807 on: August 12, 2015, 04:11:05 AM »
I was just sick of hearing all the different contradicting reports & wanted to see for myself & all this is about sharing what I found. I've shared my racing knowledge with a lot of people over the years & this is just an extension of that.
Here is a clip driving from the 7 on the Cook course to what I believe was to be the 5 on the SCTA long course then further over to the drain/pump field where there was actually white salt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-6Igv2AIdc
3.7 mile thin crust like sheer lace without the babe, only one drenched stray Kiwi out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUQdYorILno
Short clip at the 5 on the Cook course, ruff, wet & still pi$$ing down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gBufLnPORQ

  Sid.

Offline ratpatrol66

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #808 on: August 12, 2015, 05:27:50 AM »
Thanks for those videos KBT. Reading all of these post and seeing your video makes me worry about the future? It just does not look good!

Offline lishle65

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #809 on: August 12, 2015, 01:36:20 PM »
Long time lurker here and good friend of Sid's. I just tweeted Hot Rod Magazine the link to Sid's video of the salt conditions at the 7 mile mark and also gave them the link to the White House petition to stop the mining. Hoping they will send it out to all of their 50K followers and the petition can gain some steam. It's a long shot but hopefully we can get the required e-signatures to at least get a response from the White House and catch some attention on this. A louder voice is less easily ignored. I've only been on the salt since '02 and conditions have gotten considerably worse even in that short time span. I can't believe it's even up for debate after seeing the videos Sid took just a few short days ago.

I'm also working on getting the rest of the videos up today that Sid took of Intrepid's canals and how it all ties together. Hopefully that will give everyone a better understanding of how this all ties together.

Levi
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 01:38:00 PM by lishle65 »