Saving the Salt

[Sumner]

  Correct me if I am wrong but sometime in the last year someone posted on here that the local Intrepid plant was down to (it seems) thiry or forty employees  due to the World wide glut in potash etal.  So lets say its 50 or even one hundred.  Just how big of a local impact on the Economy of Wendover could the loss of one hundred shoppers be?  Smith's Market, none.  Casino's, none.  The Shell Station, none. 
  The only people affected would be the Politicians re election contributions or PAC's from Intrepid.
                                                                                      Bob Drury

They also pay into the counties property taxes and that could be a big number.  In my county (San Juan County, UT) what the oil/gas pays in is huge and when those things run out I hate to think what our property taxes are going to be,

Sum

[Milwaukee Midget]

  Correct me if I am wrong but sometime in the last year someone posted on here that the local Intrepid plant was down to (it seems) thiry or forty employees  due to the World wide glut in potash etal.  So lets say its 50 or even one hundred.  Just how big of a local impact on the Economy of Wendover could the loss of one hundred shoppers be?  Smith's Market, none.  Casino's, none.  The Shell Station, none. 
  The only people affected would be the Politicians re election contributions or PAC's from Intrepid.
                                                                                      Bob Drury

Okay, Bob - my friend - I'll correct you.  

Actually, if there are 50 jobs, and the pay $40,000.00 per year, that's 2 million going into the local metropolis of 6,000 on both sides of the state line.

That's about 1600 hotel rooms during Speedweek, which is about what Montego Bay, the Rainbow, the Peppermill and the Garter hold - provided it doesn't rain.

Potash gets mined rain or shine, and most of the money earned there stays in the local economy.

It's a surer bet than us.  

I've driven through some of those neighborhoods on the south side of Wendover - 2 large taken from there would be devastating, and I suspect Mr. Crawford would agree.

And if the NEW potash plant goes on line, that's likely to further depress potash prices, cutting into Intrepid's profits, and therefore minimizing their ability to return what salt they ARE putting back onto the flats.



Oh, here's a question - If potash is extracted via evaporation, which leaves the salt behind, where are they getting the water to pump the reconstituted brine back to the north side of the highway in the quantities they are claiming?  If it's from aquifers, what kind of sustainability can we expect using this method of transportation?

[Jack Gifford]

In Louise's Reply#735, the 1979 entry summarizes a report by the U.S. Geological Survey and the BLM which clearly states the measured loss of salt crust and places the blame solely on mining operations.

Fast-forward to today: The BLM says "... IF the salt crust has declined...".

[Is the BLM protected from 'incriminating itself'?]

A huge 'thanks' to Louise and Jinx & Rick Vesco for that 'timeline'.

[Koncretekid]

More Food for Thought

Confusing information gleaned from the following two sources:

This report from the Save the Salt website history page:
Salt Pumping Program:
 
"The BSF was once at least 5 feet thick near the center but it is now only inches thick.  There is a demonstrated process to replenish the BSF salt crust.  In 1997, salt brine was pumped onto the BSF flats at a rate of about 1.5 million tons of salt a year.  During the five-year program, the salt flats increased in thickness and hardness and the project significantly improved the underground aquifer that supports the salt crust volume."

This from the BLM study entitled: Replenishment of Salt to the Bonneville Salt Flats: Results of the 5-Year Experimental Salt Laydown Project, page 250:

"Although 1994 and 1998–2002 thickness measurements from these reference locations were compared, none of these locations showed the predicted 2-inch thickness increase in dense-cemented halite stratum thickness at the end of the 5- year experiment (table 6). In fact, between 1994 and 2001, dense-cemented halite stratum thicknesses actually decreased at BLM-46, BLM-43C, and BLM-60 by 0.2, 0.5, and 0.8 inches, respectively, and only increased at BLM-93 and BLM-71A by 0.7 inches each. Thickness decreases at three locations and additions of less than 1 inch at two locations were despite an addition of 6.2 million tons of NaCl salt to BSF during the Laydown Project."

What am I missing here?

What was missing from the Salt Laydown Project?

The Salt Laydown Project involved pumping millions of gallons of brine back onto the salt flats, but the brine was missing the 8% magnesium and potassium that naturally occurs in the surface brine, because Intrepid had already removed these minerals.  Maybe these minerals are necessary to forming the halite surface that we require.

Furthermore, pumping all that extra brine onto the flats does not necessarily add any new salt to the surface because the salt (sodium chloride) is in solution.  If you filter unsaturated brine through a sponge, what do you get?  If I remember my chemistry, you cannot filter out compounds that are in solution.  So if the majority of the newly pumped brine just filters down into the shallow brine aquifer, you haven't added any new precipitated salt to the flats.  In fact, because the brine being pumped is not saturated, it may actually be absorbing more of our hard halite surface and carrying it into the brine aquifer beneath our racing surface.

It may be a long and expensive road to stopping the mining, but if we could get enough evidence as has been suggested here, and the best lawyer for the job, and an individual or individuals who would be willing to devote a year of their life or more to the endeaver, could we at least get a moratorium on the mining?

I think the next step is to find that best lawyer, get an estimate on the best way to attack the situation, double that estimate to make it more realistic, and start a fund.

Tom

[fordboy628]

Removal of saline(s) "in solution" is extremely difficult and costly.   Re: removal of "salts" (not just NaCl) from sea water.   Read up on this with a Google search.

Salts "in solution" with pass through "filters" that do not have the ability to remove the salt at (probably, as I am not a chemist) the molecular level.

The only other way is to contain the "solution" and evaporate off the H2O.     Oh, wait, that's how they mine it . . . . . . .

Presuming that the pumped "solution" will precipitate out the NaCl back onto the flats shows either a lack of understanding of the natural process, OR, wishful thinking of the highest order.

I would expect that any pumped solution that is not "saturated" would dissolve more surface "salts" and remove them to the aquifer, thereby assisting the mining.

JMO, as I am not a chemist.
  or not . . . .
Fordboy

[maj]

In fact, because the brine being pumped is not saturated, it may actually be absorbing more of our hard halite surface and carrying it into the brine aquifer beneath our racing surface.

this is my feeling on just whats happening

to get a salt pan you need evaporation not leaching

[hotrod]

Correct they need to hold that pumped brine in a containment pond until it is saturated then make the final move to put it out on the salt flats.
Right now according to the studies when they pumped the brine it was between 15% -18% salt. With continuous flooding inches deep you setup deep flow in the shallow aquifer with that partially saturated brine percolating down through the salt layer complex and flowing back into the general under ground aquifer. They admit in their earlier studies that instead of the 2" of build up their models told them they should get they only got a fraction of that.

You know what that means -- their models were wrong or they don't really understand what is happening.

Perhaps what they need to do is intermittent pumping where they run the pumps long enough to get sheet flow of a thin sheet of brine across the surface and then shut off until it evaporates and precipitates its salt content into the upper layers of the salt deposit.

I personally think the actual mechanism of deposition of salt into the surface halite crust is salt brine wicking up from below and evaporating at the surface. You have all seen this happen out there on the salt during the day as a thin layer of moisture rises to the surface. Anything you set on the salt quickly gets dampened by salt brine due to the wicking of this rising brine.

If that is true, their pumping project is moving the brine in the wrong direction, it will be transporting salt down into the deep complex of salty mud not up toward the surface, where wind and sun evaporates the water and leaves the salt behind on the surface crust where we need it.

[kiwi belly tank]

In fact, because the brine being pumped is not saturated, it may actually be absorbing more of our hard halite surface and carrying it into the brine aquifer beneath our racing surface.

this is my feeling on just whats happening

to get a salt pan you need evaporation not leaching

I tend to agree with Maj. What I saw on monday & video'd was just the hard crystal base with a thin layer of dirt & a sprinkling of salt. Whats left of the white salt is in the drain field side to the north that flows to the plant & thats also where their north side pumps are located.
You can see that clearly in the satellite pics posted earlier.
  Sid. 

[Sumner]

.....I think the next step is to find that best lawyer, get an estimate on the best way to attack the situation, double that estimate to make it more realistic, and start a fund....

That has already been done......STS (Save the Salt).  I think now that more of us are looking at this problem we might be more sympathetic to what they have been dealing with for years now.  If it wasn't for them no lay-down program would of been used to this point regardless of the effectiveness of it.  It is easy for us to pipe up our ideas on here but they have been out there traveling and attending depressing meetings with the BLM and the Intrepid and Riley for years now and doing more than any of us have accomplished here.  There is not an easy fix for this and I sure appreciate all the time and effort they have put into this as they have jobs and other things to do just like all of us do.  They are not paid lobbyist they are racers just like you and I.

We also need to remember that the salt has been immersed in rain water, snow melt and such forever almost every winter for eons.  What would of stopped that water that had no brine in it from not taking the salt further down into the mud below the salt?   Common sense tells me that I'll take that brine water if they will pump it which they didn't always do as they claimed equipment failure for a number of the years they have pumped.

The study above about the salt thickness before and after the lay-down did at least show that it remained essentially constant and at least there wasn't a significant decrease in thickness during those years.  Also when they show differences of .3 to .7 of an inch I feel that is nothing as the salt thickness changes every winter/summer cycle to some degree from where the water blew to as it dried out and redeposited the salt that was in solution.  The reason they always search for the best place for the courses.

Also calculations done by some earlier in this thread show that with an area as large as the flats millions of tons of salt aren't going to add lots and lots of depth to it.  X number of years of pumping salt back on at slightly larger tonnage than that taken off isn't going to make up for XX number of years of just removing it.

Sumner

[Sumner]

.....Perhaps what they need to do is intermittent pumping where they run the pumps long enough to get sheet flow of a thin sheet of brine across the surface and then shut off until it evaporates and precipitates its salt content into the upper layers of the salt deposit..

When would they do that?  About the only months that could happen coincide with when we would also like to use the salt,

Sumner

[Bob Drury]

  Somewhere in the last 45 or so pages on this topic I suggested hiring Gerry Spence.  If you don't know who he is well Google him (Gerry Spence, attorney or Spence Law Firm) and watch the 30 minute interview with Him on Youtube.  He lives in Wyoming and although He is primarily a Defense Lawyer (whom has never lost a case including The FBI vs Randy Weaver where Federal sharp shooters killed his young son and then prosecuted Weaver). 
  He is the most feared defense attorney in the United States.  He is also a very strong environmentalist who if informed of this type of situation MIGHT just like to stick it to the Feds one more time.
  A phone call to the Spence Law Firm from STS might bring surprising results for not that much money.  He doesn't need it.
                                                                         Bob Drury
  ... and NO, Tom, I am not going to do it myself.  Anyone who doesn't think that STS reads every post here is standing on their Head in Quicksand and yes, you may quote me............................   O.R.B.
                                                                                                       

[DallasV]

.....Perhaps what they need to do is intermittent pumping where they run the pumps long enough to get sheet flow of a thin sheet of brine across the surface and then shut off until it evaporates and precipitates its salt content into the upper layers of the salt deposit..

When would they do that?  About the only months that could happen coincide with when we would also like to use the salt,

Sumner

Also, Intrepid will only pump when they are not harvesting. So their down time is when they pump.

[BobDcuda]

Is there a place here for a "good cop, bad cop" approach?  Let STS continue to be the good guys and work in partnership with Intrepid and BLM to get what they can - and with a smile.  And also have a separate group of wild eyed racers file a class action suit, a group that STS throws up their hands and says "we can't talk any sense into those guys".  Leverage.....

[desotoman]

 
  ... and NO, Tom, I am not going to do it myself.  Anyone who doesn't think that STS reads every post here is standing on their Head in Quicksand and yes, you may quote me............................   O.R.B.
                                                                                                       

Pretty Please Bob?  Just kidding.

IMO before I started a lawsuit, I would hire a Geological firm, to walk hand in hand (and video everything done) with the Mining Company's Geologist in the upcoming survey of the salt. If that was done then there can really not be any STS says, vs Intrepid says, controversy.

I would also think that the Lady who spoke on the second half of LSL Radio show, should be taken out to the Salt with a STS Rep and shown in person what the salt is like. That way she would have a visual of what is happening and where. She really needs to get out of her office and see for herself.

The other problem as I see it is that money talks, and until we or STS has enough money to hire Lobbyists, or contribute to the State of Utah's Politicians, as much or more than the potash industry does, we are fighting a losing battle. 

The only solution in my mind is to work Hand and Hand with Intrepid, and try to get the BLM to be more stringent in their future contracts with the mining company.

Going the other route and suing will take years, a lot of money, and no guarantee after many years of court delays, that you will win, and then there will be a mud flat, because the mining company continues to mine for all those years.

Just my opinions,

Tom G.

[BobDcuda]

Some legal firms take on class action suits for contingency fees.  If they win, they get paid.  They would sue for reparations and for their own legal fees....