Author Topic: Saving the Salt  (Read 548231 times)

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Offline jl222

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #705 on: August 05, 2015, 05:23:12 PM »
The discussion above basically accuses the mining operation and BLM of damaging the Bonneville Salt Flats by reducing the thickness of the useable racing surface.  But can we prove it?  What if it is a naturally occurring phenomena and not caused by mining?  We know the surface is deteriorating, but can we prove that man is causing it?  It's not much different than the argument whether man is causing global climate change or it is a naturally occurring phase.

I propose an experiment.

Hypothesis:
Mining operations at and/or near the Bonneville Salt Flats are causing deterioration of the of the racing surface.

Samples: Obtain three sizable quantities (a 45 gallon drum or larger) of brine from 3 areas as follows:
   Sample "RS" (Racing Surface) from the racing area in the spring of the year when concentrations of minerals might be the highest and before the mining company has started pumping.
   Sample "I" (Intrepid) from the brine that is being returned to the area after mineral extraction by the mining company.
   Sample "O" (other) from an area of the salt flats where no mining is being carried out, perhaps that area which the new mining company from Canada is trying to obtain permission to mine

Method:
    Phase 1: Evaporate sufficient equal quantities of each sample large enough to be able to analyze the precipitants.   I'm sure Intrepid already knows the answer to this question.
   Phase 2: Evaporate larger quantities of each sample in inert open top vessels which would approximate the depth of the brine on the salt flats in the spring which would simulate one years evaporation.
   Phase 3: Evaporate larger quantities of each sample in inert open top vessels as deep as possible to simulate three or more years of evaporation.

Analysis:
    Phase 1: What are the concentrations of each mineral present in the samples?
   Phase 2:  What is the approximate depth of the mineral deposit from one years evaporation?
   Phase 3:  What is the approximate depth and durability (if that can be measured) of 3 years evaporation?

Conclusions:
From the above experiment, it might be possible to show that the precipitants being returned to the racing surface are not as concentrated nor as durable as that obtained from surfaces that are not or have not been mined.

If the above results are inconclusive, we can always claim "more studies are necessary."

But if the above results indicate that the returned brine water does not result in the same quantity or quality (as in suitable for racing) of precipitants as are found in naturally occurring brine, we may have the proof we need.

Who can do the above?  Hopefully, a local university with sufficient qualifications would volunteer, as it would seem to be within their capabilities and would make a good student project.

Perhaps we are beating a dead horse here, but a lot of people won't sleep until something is done and we are powerless without the proof that mining is the culprit.

Tom


  Yeah collect samples and see what the concentration is.
  When we bought our 40 acres [a 300 acre ranch split into seven parcels] in The Sierra foothills there was a 12x12 area with
  4 ft high chicken wire. My understanding was that Fresno State did a study to see what effects cattle grazing had. Or just to see the natural unused state.
  So yeah that's what I was thinking also, get Utah State involved.

                   JL222

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #706 on: August 05, 2015, 06:36:03 PM »
Been gone for 4 days, wow this page got busy.
Maybe I am stupid, "must be because I Salt Race", but I would like anyone explain to me how the salt can "RECOVER" when virtually all the salt "HAS BEEN HAULED OFF AND SOLD". It is "GONE". What part of GONE is not understood???? Upwards  of 2' of the upper crust at the track, has been removed and hauled off.
See my explanation of the basin and drain, reply #643.

Ron
Life is an abrasive. Whether you get ground away or polished to a shine depends on what you are made of.

Offline DaveB

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #707 on: August 05, 2015, 10:21:16 PM »
Ron, I think the sink illustration is very useful. :-) I just can't get it to work for me cause of the broken stopper and hair. :-P
Everything I know about opera, I learned from Bugs Bunny.

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #708 on: August 05, 2015, 10:29:37 PM »
The USGS report FS-135-97 summarizes the BLM reports and historical data fairly well. Maximum salt crust thickness was 7 feet in 1960 and 5.5 feet in 1988. That is a loss of about 55 million tons of salt or about 5/8" per year per their own findings! At that rate during the 27 years since we should have 4.1 feet of salt crust with no Save the Salt efforts. Problem is the loss rate increases exponentially as the basin area decreases. I think Ron's right! It's GONE! :x If you look on Google Earth it looks like there is a lot of salt on the other side of the interstate. These "ponds" are lined so you get ALL the salt when the water evaporates. All we need is a lined course pond - then the pumping will actually do something. How to get that? I suspect lawyers will have to be involved.

On a personal note my first visit was 1970 and the salt was very thick and very white. We had to drill pilot holes for awning stakes with our cordless drills. [You young guys will have to Google brace & bit!] In 1975 when I ran my Honda it was still very thick but very brown and rough. Mother Nature further aggravated the traction problem! I returned to the salt in 2007 and it looked pretty good at the time. Been there every year since but have seen conditions deteriorate rapidly since then! I helped Ron Main sell worthless salt mining stock at the LA Roadster show to build the dock at Land's End. Bought some myself! [BTW: More hot rodders walked by than stopped!] Last year at the Top Speed Meet I helped to drill about 1/3 of the holes for the course markers. When we started at about the 3 the salt was tough and about 1~2" thick. It took about 5 minutes with a masonry bit to get through it. We switched to a hammer drill and then just a few seconds. By the time we got to the nine you did not even need to turn on the drill - you could just lean on it and make a hole in the goo! Reconfirms the GONE theory! :x

In the meantime maybe Utah can block off half of I-80 and we can go 500 in the Utah/B'ville Three Mile!  :?

All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #709 on: August 05, 2015, 11:51:01 PM »
Problem is the loss rate increases exponentially as the basin area decreases.

Hadn't thought of it in those terms.

And Woody, as usual, your good a blowing the dust out of the gears.

I think I have my mind wrapped around your thought process - if you think of the substrate under the salt as a concave basin, even if the loss is a constant rate in cubic capacity, as we approach the bottom of the kettle, the time it takes to finish the draining of the surface area - the surface we race on - decreases much faster.

 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #710 on: August 06, 2015, 12:44:40 AM »
Woody, If only the BLM would do something :? :?

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7659595,-113.8945789,5826m/data=!3m1!1e3

Just click on Satellite in the lower left and you can then view :-(
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 12:48:00 AM by Speed Limit 1000 »
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #711 on: August 06, 2015, 02:22:54 AM »
Got home late & been scrambling to get some of my pics & one of the videos from monday to Louise before morning. I'm running on fumes right now but here's the video link. :-P
  Sid.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q&feature=youtu.be

Offline entropy

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #712 on: August 06, 2015, 05:43:37 AM »
Got home late & been scrambling to get some of my pics & one of the videos from monday to Louise before morning. I'm running on fumes right now but here's the video link. :-P
  Sid.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q&feature=youtu.be

Sid,
Thanks again for taking time and visiting the salt, posting the vid.   :cheers:

After reading tons of explanations, etc, I still had a hard time visualizing the condition of the salt. Your vid really shows the situation at that location. It sure doesn't look good, but WTH, we are prepping for WOS anyway. :-D
karl

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Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #714 on: August 06, 2015, 07:42:41 AM »
Robin,

Any news on 52 Express plans for 2015? :wink:

Offline tauruck

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #715 on: August 06, 2015, 08:02:57 AM »
Checked the video Sid. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Never been there but I know it isn't supposed to be like that!.

Sad sight.

Thanks for doing what you did. :cheers:

velocity

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #716 on: August 06, 2015, 11:12:54 AM »
UPDATE SPEED COLLABORATORS

DIRECT LINK:

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/shrinking-salt-flats

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #717 on: August 06, 2015, 12:29:32 PM »
I attended a conference yesterday here in Phoenix in which there were presenters from AZ. UT. and ID. about access to public lands.  There MAY soon be law suits coming forth from several Western States suing the Federal Govt. for their public lands guaranteed to them by the 1780 Articles of Confederation and the 1789 US Constitution.

It is not just we racers who are losing access, its hunters, fishermen, off roaders of all types snowmobilers

---on and on it is a HUGE FEDERAL GRAB!!!

There will most likely be two law suits, about PUBLIC LANDS!

I will post more detail on this thread.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 04:19:23 PM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

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Offline Texican

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #718 on: August 06, 2015, 12:43:22 PM »
   Any chance that some punitive measures might involve a blindfold, and choice of ropa-dopa or firing squad?

Offline dw230

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #719 on: August 06, 2015, 12:51:32 PM »
Thanks Bill,

DW
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