Author Topic: Saving the Salt  (Read 548261 times)

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Offline Elmo Rodge

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Re: Speed Week 2015 is cancelled
« Reply #555 on: July 21, 2015, 10:09:38 PM »
John, John, John. I believe he meant "At one time". The duration of which was undefined.  :-D  :cheers: Wayno

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #556 on: July 21, 2015, 10:53:26 PM »
     Where is the new proposed mine located in relation to the Salt North of the Flats that the Military uses for their shooting range? [The possible alternate track].
     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #557 on: July 21, 2015, 11:06:39 PM »
  Hooboy, faster than a speeding bullet I ain't.  Shooting with shrapnel hidden beneath the salt surface might not be a good thing either.  Just sayin, not knowin........... :-P
Bob Drury

Offline Texican

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Re: Speed Week 2015 is cancelled
« Reply #558 on: July 21, 2015, 11:54:55 PM »
  Here is a story that ran a little less than an hour ago.
Tells a little more.


http://fox13now.com/2015/07/21/layers-of-mud-at-bonneville-salt-flats-forces-speed-week-organizers-to-cancel-event/

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #559 on: July 22, 2015, 12:08:50 AM »
     Where is the new proposed mine located in relation to the Salt North of the Flats that the Military uses for their shooting range? [The possible alternate track].
     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Eagle Range (Military) is north east of Floating Mountain, the proposed mine area is the north side of Silver Island Mt's.
There is no shortage of salt anywhere in the US except on the Bonneville Salt Flats. There is one mine in Georgia that has enough salt to supply the USA for the next 250,000 years & that was not a typo!
  Sid. :x

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #560 on: July 22, 2015, 12:32:19 AM »
The Save the Salt Coalition and SEMA have been actively opposing the Mesa Exploration Bounty Potash Project since it was first proposed a couple of years ago.  It should be noted that the mine would be located in Pilot Valley, not the Bonneville Salt Flats.  The two locations are geologically unrelated.  

Stuart, you're closer to this than I am, and I'm no hydrologist, but please excuse me if I question the assertion that the two locations are unrelated.

The Pilot Mountain Habitat Management Plan states -

Section E -

"The mountains consist of various limestone, dolomite, sandstone,
quartzite, granite, siltstone, rhyolite and shale formations (Stokes,
1963). Below these are several layers of "benches" which were formed by
Lake Bonneville during the Pleistocene epoc. From these benches gradual
slopes stretch out to the flats of the Great Salt Lake Desert.
"

Section C -

"Elevations vary from approximately 4,200 feet on the west edge
of the Great Salt Lake Desert
to 8,600 feet in the Utah part of the
Pilot Mountains. The highest part of this range is on the Nevada side
of the state boundary, five points reaching elevations of from 10,182 to
10,716 feet (U.S. Geological Survey, 1967)."

A satellite overview indicates that they are connected, and the government survey indicates they are at the same level.

So I guess the question is, is the brine aquifer common to both locations, or are they two completely separate entities?

Seeing as the method of extraction is brine pumped from aquifers, Pilot Valley may have an effect on the mature mine in Wendover by -

1. Disrupting the amount and quality of brine available to Intrepid.
2. Depleting the brine aquifer in a manner which may or may not have an effect on the salt surface.
3. But most importantly, producing potash more cheaply with modern equipment and methods than Intrepid can, hurting Intrepid's profitability, and therefore, their willingness to contribute to any effort of reclamation.

Maybe I'm overthinking this?

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Intrepid Potash Inc. what do they do?
« Reply #561 on: July 22, 2015, 12:37:08 AM »
  uh, I know, I know, pick me!!!  They make MONEY!!! :roll: :roll:
While phucking the environment until it is depleted & then paying a fine in the amount equal to the value of $1 of my racing budget because it is unrestorable per their contract.
I've spent years working on mining equipment, I've seen it all before.
  Sid. 

Offline Tman

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Re: Intrepid Potash Inc. what do they do?
« Reply #562 on: July 22, 2015, 01:37:09 AM »
We need to contact VICE news, they hammer this stuff. This is more than us racing, this is raping the land.

velocity

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #563 on: July 22, 2015, 03:37:18 AM »
Hello Stuart -

Rather than private phone call, I am opting for a transparent conversation.

Hundreds of racers have lent their support and given their money to Save the Salt / STS Coalition. While the mission to restore the salts is noble, the severe lack of reporting from the coalition is troubling. You have always told me "there are things being done in the background" about this or about that, but substantive, tractive forward movement is lacking. I know of 2 members of the coalition that have asked their names be removed because they had NEVER received an update, report or any communication from you without first nagging you for an update. They quit because they are fed up, not because they don't want to save the salt.

Indeed, when I was unable to make the SEMA Show meetings you assured me of a full report of the meeting after you returned to Washington DC. I am still waiting.

Additionally, I spent weeks digging through the University of Utah's Marriott Library special collections, mining collections, archeology collection, photo and film collections gathering date specifically for the coalition's use to prove factually -- with documentation -- the salt loss historical timeline. I digitized dozen's of reports and sent the entire package to you. To my knowledge nothing has been done with the research. Nothing. That was several years ago.

You asked to speak to me today, but I had no call, so at 2AM I am using this forum to give as many eyeballs as possible an update from a coalition member who is wondering what she and her company are lending its name and support to. . .

I believe you and Mr. Dean has good intentions. However, the Coalition's track record is woefully underwhelming.

Is it too much to ask that you provide an update each month? or every other month? or at least once a quarter so that the racers who faithfully send their coin and cash to the cause know where it is going and what is being done to rescue their beloved raceway?

I sent a searing note to BLM's Oliver for almost the same reasons. As the purported guardians of our public lands, each top dog before him, has promised much, but done little to help the salt flats restoration.

Frankly, when the BLM lied to Russ Eyres (or a very least gave him the bum's rush) about the language that was to be part of the new mining leases to require the return of halite to the raceway after processing that blew my head gasket as far patience was concerned. Those leases renew every 20 years. Land Speed racing does not have that kind of time to wait for another period of renewal.

From my perspective, as a historian and investigative reporter, the coalition has a very thin track record considering all the time it has had to study and implement some type of grassroots strategic plan. You may have something, but the racers have nothing but nice words. The coalition should be MORE accountable to the racing community than the BLM.

Too much talk.
Too little action.

There are plenty of big personalities whirling around the this subject, lots of verbose opinions (mine included) about what should be done.

Were I to ask only one thing, it would be - without any further delay -- high profile, inspiring leadership.

Respectfully,

LandSpeed Louise
 

 


Offline DND

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #564 on: July 22, 2015, 04:30:09 AM »
That letter was spot on the money, good going Louise

Don

Offline kustombrad

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Re: Intrepid Potash Inc. what do they do?
« Reply #565 on: July 22, 2015, 10:20:45 AM »
I asked this on one of the other threads... If something was on TV about all this, how would you go about it? Do a whole before/after type layout of what the salt flats has become? Be nice to the BLM (even though they dropped the ball) and throw the state of Utah under the bus for allowing one of the huge focal points of their state to be destroyed? The idea is to reach the hot rodding community so EVERYONE knows their bucket list destination is being ruined and get enough outside pressure (by people who don't know yet) that something actually gets done...

Robin UK

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Re: Open Letter to the BLM
« Reply #566 on: July 22, 2015, 10:51:13 AM »
MM - in response to Louise's original request and in support of the points you raise, I've just sent this to Kevin Oliver in order to add a bit of off-shore perspective.

Robin

BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS
Kevin,
For the last 10-15 years I’ve read about the long term effects of potash extraction from Bonneville Salt Flats and sometimes thought that if they’d had a voice they might paraphrase Mark Twain by saying that “reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated”. Having read Louise Anne Noeth’s latest status report and the responses of those alarmed by it, I no longer feel that is the case. This now feels like the beginning of the end that so many have been predicting for so long.

I’ll say straightaway that as a Brit who has visited many times but never driven on Bonneville (well, other than in a Buick rental car many years ago) then my opinions probably count for nothing and I certainly don’t have any business or political influence. However, I have been directly involved in land speed record breaking at the highest level with my involvement partly shaped by the exploits of those who have raced at Bonneville.  All over the world those exploits are more influential than you might think. So perhaps this gives me a sense of perspective and objectivity less clouded than those directly affected by the loss of what is in my opinion a natural treasure every bit as important as Mount Rushmore, the Grand Canyon or the Yosemite.

We are by no means perfect in the UK and make as many mistakes as any other Western nation but one of the things we are good at is recognising and protecting the things that make us what we are. We are sometimes still depicted as a nation that looks backwards rather than forwards and while that isn’t true, the sense of history and heritage we have means, more often than not, that national monuments and areas of historic and cultural importance are properly protected and maintained. And by that I don’t just mean Stonehenge or Buckingham Palace. As an example, it turns out that the UK is sitting on enough shale gas to more than compensate for the eventual demise of the North Sea oil fields. But since fracking is currently the only way to access that gas, every attempt to begin even small scale test extraction has been defeated by public opinion and because of the possible consequences on the countryside and urban areas alike. So from over here I look on with dismay at the continuing decline of a truly world class and significant natural treasure for what will ultimately prove to be short term financial gain.

I therefore urge you and anybody else you can involve to redouble your efforts to protect Bonneville Salt Flats from further decline. The USA, more than any other nation, is defined by the automobile. The Germans may have invented it and the French may have been first to exploit it, but it was the USA who truly brought all its possibilities – good and bad – to the world. It’s a key part of your heritage and motor sport in turn is a key part of that. The exploits of all who raced and continue to race at Bonneville add to that heritage.  Go anywhere in the world and mention record breaking and people will say “oh you mean Bonneville salt flats?” It is the only place in the world synonymous with record breaking. I can’t imagine the Indianapolis Speedway being turned over to housing development, a dam being built half way along the Grand Canyon or rock from Mount Rushmore being used as a handy source of hardcore to build freeways, but from where I view things, what’s being done to Bonneville is the equivalent of any of those.

As I said at the beginning of this note, I have no influence at all. But I do have an opinion, so I hope that expressing that opinion will add weight to those of others and make sure that every effort is made to save Bonneville before it’s too late. A journalist over here in the UK this month wrote the following words when reviewing the exploits of the ThustSSC land speed record team and the upcoming follow on project – BloodhoundSSC: 

“If the pursuit of seemingly unobtainable goals without consideration for pecuniary gain is a sign of man’s search for idealism, then march on Green, Noble and their regiment of kindred spirits”.

Amen to that, but what a shame if a large number of those kindred spirits are denied access to Bonneville Salt Flats in order to satisfy the pecuniary gain of others.

Best regards
 

Offline hotrod

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #567 on: July 22, 2015, 11:01:48 AM »
Another thing that would be helpful would be current status information on the save the salt web page.
The current content of http://www.savethesalt.org/current-events.html  makes no mention of the rainout or thin salt conditions this year.
This page should be updated at least every 60 days with current status information, and perhaps links to recent press coverage so new arrivals can see the on-going debate about the conditions out at the flats.

They brag about getting $40,000 in donations but can't spare $100 for a local journalism or web developer intern to do periodic updates?

Useful feed back to your support community is critical to both future donations and to maintain public awareness of the conditions at the salt flats and their exposure to exploitation, from mining without timely recovery of waste salt back to the salt flats. Based on what I am seeing the current pumping volumes barely cover current ongoing extraction and do not even make a dent in long standing depletion of the dense cemented Halite top crust we depend on to use the flats for its historic uses.


Offline petercalaguiro

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #568 on: July 22, 2015, 11:17:00 AM »
FYI.......salt information







This is not good news!
 
This article was in the Salt Lake Tribune.

http://www.sltrib.com/sports/2709833-155/utahs-famous-bonneville-salt-flats-are
The Bonneville Salt Flats are quiet today.
That otherworldly silence isn't all that uncommon in a place that is historically renowned for its inability to support life. But this week, it's exceptional.
More than 60 speed junkies had planned to converge on the salt flats to test their racing equipment in advance of next month's Speed Week — one of the racing community's most anticipated annual events.
Instead, they have packed up and gone home.
 
And Speed Week's Aug. 8 start is in jeopardy. The Southern California Timing Association, the sponsor of the event, will decide this weekend whether to cancel for the second year in a row.
Depending on who you talk to, it's an issue of not enough salt or too much water — or neither.
"I was actually out there for the past three or four days," Russ Eyers, a member of the timing association, said on Thursday. "I was doing the surveying and grading, trying to find a place to hold a meet, and we just didn't get there."
There's no place to race.
And a decades-long tradition in Utah's West Desert — an economic engine and, perhaps, an ecological harbinger for the Great Salt Lake ecosystem itself — is at risk.
At the Salt Flats Cafe, Jorge Escobedo says the racers' conversation turns to one topic: the decline and eventual disappearance of the salt flats.
"They know it's going to happen," he said. "They just don't know when."

Debating the cause • The problem, Eyers believes, lies at the crossroads of inclement weather and years of environmental abuse.
Heavy rains both last year and this past spring caused a layer of mud to flow down from the surrounding mountains onto the salt flats, covering roughly 6 miles of the area usually converted into a race course.
That by itself wouldn't be a deal breaker were it not for salt depletion, Eyers said.
Mineral extraction on the salt flats started in the early 1900s. Over the decades, Eyers believes, the mining industry has removed so much salt that the salt flats have begun to shrink. If the racers had enough room, he said, they would have just moved this weekend's course away from the mudslide.
But the salt flats aren't large enough to accommodate that anymore, he said.
And the depth and quality of the salt crust has declined, Eyers added. In the 1940s and '50s, he said, the crust was an average of two to three feet thick.
"There is no place on that salt flat now where there is anything more than two inches," he said.
Thin salt becomes additionally problematic because there is a layer of sticky, almost quicksand-like mud just below the salt crust. When the salt is too thin and too soft, cars — or even people — can fall through and get stuck.
Racers need a large, strong, healthy salt flat. And this week, between the rain and the mud and the thinned-out salt, that didn't happen.
Speed Week, which is just three weeks away, poses a much bigger challenge.
Eyers is part of the crew who helps set up and design the race courses. A typical speed week involves six: 9-mile courses for the fastest racers who want to push 400 to 500 mph, a slightly shorter course for those going 300 mph, two more 3-mile courses for 200 mph runs, and a "mini" 2-mile course for people who want to see just how fast they can go on, for example, a folding bike that fit in their suitcase.
The salt flats are "just a unique place," said Dennis Sullivan, president of the local Utah Salt Flats Racing Association, which had planned the trial meet this weekend.
"It's the only place," he explained, where racers have enough flat space to safely decelerate after achieving speeds of 400 miles per hour, or even more.
As racing on the salt flats has become more difficult, Sullivan said, racers have turned to other venues. Some have tried airport runways.
But speed records these days are set at other geologic phenomena, including the Black Sand Desert in Nevada, Sullivan said.
There, he said, race cars leave deep ruts in the sand, preventing additional racers from following them immediately afterward. To host a world-class event like Speed Week, he said, you need the Bonneville Salt Flats.
"If we could take it somewhere else, people would have already looked there," Sullivan said. "We need thickness, length, purity. That's what we're battling for right now."

No simple solution • What's not clear, geologists say, is who or what the racing community will be fighting to restore the salt.
Bill White, a geologist who retired from the U.S. Bureau of Land Management in 2007 after dedicating much of his career to studying the salt flats, isn't sure about the cause of their decline — or even if there is such a deterioration.
The salt flats are an immensely complicated system no one fully understands, White said. And any decline that has taken place can't be blamed entirely on mining companies, including Morton Salt or Intrepid Potash, extracting too many minerals.
"There is change," he said, "but not necessarily decline."
Serious scientific study of the salt flats began in 1960, at about the same time the racers started to complain about deteriorating salt conditions.
Two more studies followed and found, much to everyone's alarm, that the salt flats did appear to be shrinking. In 1960, measurements found that the salt flats covered an area of roughly 38 square miles. In 1974, the same methodology found the salt flats covered 36 square miles. And in 1988, geologists measured 30 square miles of salt crust.
Those numbers led the BLM and U.S. Geological Survey to conclude that the flats were losing salt at an average rate of 1.1 percent per year.
Based on that conclusion, federal land managers arranged an experiment. A couple of mining companies, including Intrepid Potash, agreed to voluntarily pump the excess salt produced by their operations back out onto the salt flats where, hopefully, it would become re-integrated into the surface.
Initial estimates suggested that the salt crust's thickness would increase by two inches between 1997 and 2002.
But nothing happened.
Even after more intense monitoring started in 1988, there was no discernible change to the overall volume of salt, White said.
The size and shape of the area covered by salt did change, but seemed to fluctuate according to some indiscernible seasonal cycle loosely correlated with the weather. The salt never disappeared, White said, it just moved around.
The only salt that did actually vanish was the salt pumped over the flats — which, as of 2012, amounted to 9.8 million tons, according to the BLM.
The area's mining companies believe they are not the cause of Speed Week's recent problems. Only Morton and Intrepid responded to questions from The Salt Lake Tribune. A spokeswoman for Morton Salt said the company doesn't have any significant impact on salt levels, but didn't elaborate.

Underwater salt pool? • White has a theory as to where all that salt went: a huge saltwater aquifer beneath the salt flats.
During his research, White came to the conclusion that the salt flats were not, as so many people had long assumed, formed directly by the evaporation of salty runoff from the surrounding mountains, but rather by the evaporation of saltwater welling up from an aquifer.
The salt flats are located in a basin, just inches above the local water table.
"This is the lowest part of the West desert, so ground water discharges upward into the salt flats," he said. "You don't see it in the summer because it evaporates, but it pools up on top of the salt flats in the winter."
That interaction with the water table is further complicated by rainfall, White said, because when it rains, that water begins to dissolve the top part of the salt crust and causes the salt to wash back down into the aquifer. It will be deposited on the salt crust once again when the water table rises, he said, but during a rainy spell, the salt flats can appear to thin out and give way to the silty mud below.
The estimated size and scope of the saltwater aquifer is so immense, White said, that he doubts it's possible for the mines to take enough salt to make an appreciable difference.
Even if they could somehow extract all of the most desirable minerals contained within the entire underground reservoir, he said, they would still only remove eight percent of the salt dissolved within it. According to a recent economic study, five companies extract salt, magnesium, potash and other minerals in massive evaporation ponds, producing 4.4 million tons a year valued at $685 million and supporting almost 2,000 jobs.
What's more, White continued, is that the current estimates suggest the aquifer is so large it could absorb another 10 to 15 million tons of salt without difficulty.
"And that's where our two inches went," he said.
What all of this means, White said, is that salt isn't the mover and shaker that may or may not be behind the decline of the salt flats. The real issue, he said, is water.
"Water is the 800-pound gorilla in the room," he said. "I would say that water has the greatest impact out on the salt flats."

Weather permitting • The trouble with all the models and theories is that for the time being, they're just that — theories.
Geologists still aren't sure they can explain all the mechanisms — human made or not — that impact the salt flats' fluctuations.
The BLM, with the assistance of the University of Utah, plans to launch yet another study, expected to be complete by 2018.
In the meantime, White said, he sympathizes with the plight of the salt flat racers.
"All I can do is give them the facts and the conclusions we have drawn with those facts," he said. "And unfortunately, it's not a complete picture."
What he does know, White said, is that so far the weather this summer has been too wet to produce an adequate surface for safe racing.
"All I can do is wish them the best of luck with the weather," he said, "because that's nothing we can control."
The timing association continues to hold out hope that conditions on the salt flats will improve before Speed Week, but Eyers said that with all the international entries the competition has this year, the group will have to make some decisions soon.
"We don't want them to spend tens of thousands of dollars getting here, only to find out we have no track," he said.
Speed Week already has almost 600 paid pre-entries — which, if the weather cooperates, would make August's trials the largest in the decades-long history of the event.
If the weather doesn't cooperate, the racers won't be the only disappointed party.
Back at the Salt Flats Cafe, Escobedo worried that canceling Speed Week for two years in a row would have a much bigger impact on Wendover and area businesses.
"Last year was good, because even though Speed Week was canceled, they canceled later that week, and there were still a lot of people" in the area, he said. "This year, I bet, this year would be really hard."
epenrod@sltrib.com
Peter
02G0250

Offline jl222

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Re: 2nd Mining company to start mining on Bonneville Salt Flats
« Reply #569 on: July 22, 2015, 11:33:57 AM »
  Peter you need to modify the 60 to 600 entrants. Click on modify to bring up post.

          JL222 :cheers:

  OOPS, I see now it was from the newspaper :roll:
  Change the you to they.
 
  I just read about the 60 entrants and got called for breakfast.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 01:30:33 PM by jl222 »