Saving the Salt

[Ron Gibson]

In piles on the other side of the road.
They study "IF" there is salt loss when there are millions of tons piled on their property.  Where does the BLM think that salt came from??  I'm not a mineralogist but I could see them delaying pumping as much as they can because brine they pump back dilutes the potash brine with brine that already has the potash removed lowering the amount available for extraction.

Ron

[Sumner]

Sum,

IIRC you wee in my truck when I showed you that area.

DW

Thanks, my memory is failing  .  Glad yours is still good 

Sum

[wobblywalrus]

Arrive at the meet early and get through tech as soon as possible.  Set up the car/bike so you can run hard as soon as possible after you unload.  This way, it is possible to exploit limited windows of opportunity when the course is up and running and the track is in good shape.  The nice thing about speedweek is the sun is high in the sky and evaporation rates are optimal for drying the course.  It is too early to get worried.

[DaveB]

Thank you Bob Drury for a little background on salt pumping. Could you or others give us some insight as to how Intrepid Industries is doing with keeping the salt from being depleted or... is mining the reason it is being depleted.

Intrepid Industries mines and sells Potash. Wikipedia says: "potash became the term widely applied to naturally occurring potassium salts and the commercial product derived from them". Pumping or no pumping I believe the stuff we want to race on is being mined/extracted and sold. I think I agree with Ron.

Those that don't give a hoot about land speed racing are getting just what they want. Delay.

[hotrod]

During the other debate threads on salt conditions the question has come up in various ways, exactly what does Intrepid do?

It appears that they bought the current Rendover plant from Reiley in 2004.
It looks to me they are a completely different company than Reilly Industries.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/590046347/Reilly-Industries-to-sell-operations-in-Wendover.html

Reilly Industries has signed an agreement to sell its brine and potash business,
including its Wendover brine facility, to Intrepid Wendover Potash LLC, owned by
Intrepid Mining LLC, the parent company of Moab Potash and Moab Salt in Moab.

The closing is expected on March 31. Financial terms were not disclosed.

Potassium chloride, commonly known as potash, and magnesium chloride are recovered
through surface extraction at the Wendover site, which has been owned by Reilly
since 1988 and in continuous operation since 1932. Potash is a crop nutrient.
Magnesium chloride brine is used for dust control, anti-icing, chemical intermediates
and specialty fertilizers.

Reilly Industries produces specialty chemicals. It has 550 workers in seven
facilities in the United States, Europe and Asia.

Intrepid owns and operates several potash operations scattered about the region.

https://www.intrepidpotash.com/careers/career-areas.html
Their annual reports are available here:
http://investors.intrepidpotash.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=218952&p=irol-reportsAnnual

Here is an extract from one page of their 2008 report for a quick summary of what they do at Wendover.

Intrepid Potash, Inc. Mine Operations
Wendover Facility

Product                                            Muriate of Potash
Extraction Method                             Lake Brine Evaporation
Nameplate Capacity                          120,000 tons of Potash annually
Effective Capacity                              93,000 tons of Potash annually
Minimum Remaining Reserve Life        30 Years

The Wendover Facility is located 122 miles west of Salt Lake City, Utah and has been actively used for potash production from naturally occurring brines for over 75 years.
Brine from a shallow potash containing aquifer is collected in over 100 lineal miles of open ditches throughout the 88,000 acres of land controlled by Intrepid. In addition to the brine that is collected in the shallow aquifer, there is a deep potash containing aquifer 1,000 feet below ground. Intrepid has drilled three wells, two of which were drilled in 2008, into this deep aquifer to provide supplemental brine into the system.
Since acquiring the Wendover Facility in 2004, we have made a number of process improvements including applying best practices to increase volumes and efficiencies.
We pump the brine collected in the ditch system into an 8,000 acre solar evaporation pond to evaporate water and precipitate salts. Over five billion gallons of brine are pumped into the solar pond system each year. As the brine becomes saturated with potash, it is transferred through a series of  smaller evaporation ponds into harvest ponds. When the ripened brine finally reaches the harvest ponds, the ore (a combination of salt and potash) precipitates onto the pond floor. The remaining brine in the harvest ponds is removed and the ore is harvested and transported by elevating scrapers to the mill for processing. In the mill, the potash is separated from the salt by flotation. The material is then dried, compacted, and screened into standard product or compacted into a granular grade of white potash. To produce Metal Recovery Salt (MRS), which is a combination of potash and salt, the ore from the harvest ponds is sent directly to the dryer to be dried and screened. The final products are conveyed and stored in bulk storage warehouses. From the warehouses, potash and MRS are loaded directly into railcars or trucks for shipment.
The left over brine, rich in magnesium chloride, is removed from the harvest ponds and transferred into additional evaporation ponds to concentrate further. Then, the brine is transferred into storage ditches and lined ponds. From storage, the magnesium chloride brine, which is used as a winter highway de-icing product and also a dust control and soil stabilization agent, is loaded into trucks or railcars for shipment.

[Bob Drury]

  Okay, here is my dream scenario.  Scientist's from most accounts are free thinkers who don't usually trust every common theory they read, nor do they  apparently
care to be ordered around by "less smart people".  When was the last time you heard of a politician or public official who came from a scientific background?
  They tend to hang out with their fellow scholars and form Society's or Club's to compare notes and most likely get drunk.
  In my dream I google "The American Society of Independent Geologist's" and also "The National Meterological Society" and explain that STS doesn't have a lot of money but we believe the BLM has deceived the American Public, blah blah blah..  Lo and Behold it turns out that a couple of Scientists from each group have years before been turned down for Government Grant's for each of their's Research Project Funding.
  As the dream continues STS contacts the Utah and Nevada Boards of Tourism and wala............. They are on board, Then Mike Crawford Our beloved Mayor of Wendover Utah and currently leading the drive to build the New Bonneville Racing Museum (where I hope to display a stuffed Bruce Geisler  who set more records than any one else (I believe) between 1960 and 2000 who is not helping a lot by still living, along side His Hankey Pankey Studebaker and by the way who introduced a couple of Mike's to the
Salt Flats. Last names? I think one is Cook and the other Lefever (sorry Mike, I am guessing at the spelling).
  Anyway back to the dream, Mike the mayor convinces the owners of the other Wendover that if they help out we promise to never enter their Casinos or Hotels without removing our shoes first saving them tens of thousands of dollars yearly for replacing vacuum cleaners and carpeting.
 And two months later we (STS and its two new lawyers, Gerry Spence, and Jonney Cochran (If the glove don't fit, you must aquit) and our team of disgruntled Scientists appear in District Federal Court, and in a pre trial hearing The first ever Federal Transgender Judge, the former Bruce Jenner, reads through our highlighted evidence, takes sworn testimony from our scientific researchers, takes a 10 minute powder, returns to the judges chambers where our team and 27 identical lawyers representing the BLM appear to be sweating profusely especially in the groin area.
  Judge Jenner looks up, adjust his er her reading glasses, turns to the 27 kiss Acura BLM lawyers whom all think they are the anointed spoksman and who all appear to be not breathing, and says: "You lying bastard's, (27 straight backed lawyers appear to slouch) Your bosses seized my favorite Spa for a New parking lot. I find you all guilty by association and hereby turn control of the entire Bonneville Salt Flats over to the State of Utah Department of Tourism and order you and your bosses to move all the Salt piled on the South Side of I-80 to the North Side of I-80 within thirty days and I don't give a Rat's Acura   :-if you have to haul it with your Official Golf Carts".
  ...and then I woke up smiling and fell out of bed.........................  One Run, out........................................

[Elmo Rodge]

.......and landed on a Confederate Flag (or lack of one, thereof, depending on your personal proclivities).

Sorry Bob. Just trying to keep it current.  Wayno

[Stainless1]

Wow Bob, I thought you were off the sauce   
 

[Bob Drury]

  Well I still am off the sauce, but this morning when I was taking my meds I reached for the bottle of green ones and accidently took a couple of the blue ones and for the next four hours I had a HARD time keeping my thoughts STRAIGHT.  I kept thinking about some Bimbo Geologist that had a permanent smile showing off her orthadoniclly correted teeth and seemed to be sharing her expertice on logical ways that vast amounts of some thing she called NaCl can disappear seemingly overnight due to Magnetic forces from the Moon and............ oh, wait that was another dream.......... or was it?   

  Yo, Wayno, doncha be talkin no jive about honkey ass flags  or my fly ass boys be layin some fist on ya all............ dig?

[dw230]

A nice little chuckle this morning Bob, thank you.

One thing that stood out to me in the return letter was the rapid response indicated by the July 15th date. The receives a letter on Monday and by Wednesday has a team on the salt with bore hole drills. Then by Friday has tested and analyzed the samples with enough time remaining to draft a reply.

Suspicious to to me.

DW

[Ron Gibson]

Look up suspicious in the dictionary, it says see "Corruption" 

Ron

[Seldom Seen Slim]

For the sake of the discussion I excerpt this quote taken from Wheelerdealer's post about the BLM statement:

"...unchanged from 2003 with total salt crust sediments depth of 3.2 and 2.2 feet thick at MP 3 and 5 respectively." (my emphasis)

Which mileposts -- the ones on the freeway?  Or maybe on one of the courses -- say, the international course.  Or where?  We've discussed here and there that the salt inside the dike is much better looking than the stuff out where we race, so if the measurements are made right near the highway -- well, I guess all I can ask is "So what about the area where we race?  It's nice to know the there's lots of salt for the tourists to see when they're at the rest area, but have multiple measurements been made on "our" side of the dike?  I know from personal experience - lots of it - that there's no way in hell that there's 3.2 or 2.2 INCHES of salt in many places on the race courses.

I now return control of your computer to you.

[hotrod]

This is part of the intentional (in my view) misrepresentation which is being used. When they say "total salt crust" they are talking about the entire salt crystal deposit depth not the hard consolidated halite formation at the very top we think of when we say salt crust.

I see it as intentional deception to avoid taking action, when it is obvious to anyone who uses the salt flats (ie movie companies, racers, hobby rocket enthusiasts, advertising agencies shooting video and photos for ads) that the only part of the deposit that makes the salt flats both useful and visually appealing for the entertainment related uses is limited to that thin top layer of hard compact halite, not the deep salty mush underneath.

Rule of thumb if their statement over qualifies what they are talking about with words like "total salt crust" they are trying to blow smoke up your yazoo with intentional misinformation.

[hotrod]

For those who might not be intimately familiar with the Wendover area of I80 and what the terrain is like at mile post 2 - 4 on I80 here are some screen grabs from Google maps.
He clearly has no clue what he is talking about if he is referring to the I80 mile posts, as this area is nothing but alkali mud flat. Mile post 4 is where we turn off at the Salt Flats Cafe exit, and Mile post 2 is the exit for the old road into Wendover.

[hotrod]

These are some images of actual test biscuits of the "real salt crust" taken in 2011 on the international course near the middle of the timing traps.

I literally took a camping hatchet and with 4 whacks cut through the crust to pull out a square of salt crust (mud layer below) so it could be measured.

Don Cyr is holding the sample and a U.S. quarter for comparison.


In the second image you have another small sample cut out of the salt crust at the timing tower during the Mike Cook Shoot out same year about 1/4 mile east of the first sample from the spectator area. You can see it is slightly thicker near the timing stand and you can see a clear mudline in the salt from wind blown silt that got on the salt the prior year.