Saving the Salt

[PorkPie]

Pork Pie... I Had to change your post a little..... I hope you don't mind    
see you in a couple of weeks

Stainless, thank you my friend.

I wrote the note during my lunch break (in the office)....I didn't took care "what" I wrote....

...but was it so "funny"...that you "HAD" to do.....

...some more weeks.....

[Milwaukee Midget]

Mr. Oliver's vitae indicates a background in fire management.

Perhaps he can be convinced that putting this one out should be made a priority?

[RogerL]

Louise, telling it like it is. Glad someone is willing to state the obvious.

[RogerL]

Louise, i think you are correct. that pic is likely from inside the saldero loop which we racers do not have access to presently.

[dw230]

Ah shucks Bob - he says kicking a small piece of dry salt.

Mike,

That is what Bill mentioned in our meeting at the end of the July EM event. Tonight, SCTA Bard meeting, may offer more insights.

DW

[BasementBorn]

You are probably right Louise. Just got my hopes up with the pic. Will wait to see what happens of course.

On a side note, does anyone have any info on the Salduro loop?

[MRK]

Ah shucks Bob - he says kicking a small piece of dry salt.

Mike,

That is what Bill mentioned in our meeting at the end of the July EM event. Tonight, SCTA Bard meeting, may offer more insights.

DW

I do recall that. I didn't want to use his name in vain. 

[stinker]

I am sorry but I also posted this on another thread that is on the same subject.

This is possibly the best way to stop salt degradation.

IF you believe:
The adjacent mining operation is the reason for salt degradation over time.
The corporation that is responsible for it does not care.
The BLM doesn't care about LSR.
The loss in mining jobs is worth maintaining the LSR industry jobs.

It would not be that difficult to shift the willingness of Intrepid Industries away from operating this facility.

The company that is mining the area like all corporations wants to take in a maximum of profits with a minimum of risk. The correct type of truthful and legal pressure would make them decide to stop the operation. The general method is: file truthful complaints with regard to safety and environmental issues against the facility.

Once a stream of field inspectors start coming to the facility from various regulatory agencies the owners will close the operation. This is way more powerful than you might think it is because the federal government requires officers of corporations to personally sign documents that guarantee their facilities are in compliance with things such as their EPA permits. That is how officers and owners of corporations get prosecuted. If the facility is found in non compliance the officers can be and often are held accountable. It is also not hard to get a field inspector from various agencies so show up for a surprise inspection.

The Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA), EPA, and OSHA all have easy ways for citizens to file complaints against facilities. I also know that these agencies respond to a surprising number of them by sending an inspector if they believe it is a real safety or environmental risk. Once the inspector is there they will formalize the complaint and require a response. Depending on the inspector they will probably look for more deficits.

The MSHA and EPA does not fool around when they find violations. They view these as an income stream. The reason this makes plants stop operation is it changes their cash flow, makes them concerned about future ability to operate and makes the officers nervous because they signed stuff that can mean personal liability.

You make your complaints in writing or on the agencies web site. Some can be anonymous but they probably carry more weight if sighed. The complaints are not about salt depletion or the like. They are about clear cut, current safety or environmental issues. Things like: not covering up loose piles at night or during rain causing runoff, runoff in streams or ditches, dust coming out their dryer stack, trucks making ruts in public roads, unsafe looking electrical lines, dust from haul roads, noisy shaker screens and many others. You don't do this all at once. Just file one or two a month for a few years. Also do not combine problems on the same complaint. You want many separate inspections. A little bit of reading about mining safety and emissions can go a long way in finding things to complain about.

This would work because the people who make the decisions for this corporation would decide to invest their resources in something that causes them less risk and causes less headaches.

[hotrod]

For those who want to do something, you want to be very careful about what you are suggesting here.
I personally am not fond of trying to crush a company through legal extortion.
Just because the environmental folks do it, does not make it right.
Intrepid has been a good neighbor as I understand it (those in the know please correct me if I am wrong here), entering into voluntary agreements to help restore the salt even though at the time they had no legal obligation to help the project.

The folks at Save the Salt and the folks who have been working that problem for years might not appreciate folks going in like a bull in a china closet without doing a little background research to find out exactly what the score is. Over-eager efforts that accidentally steps on toes that should not be stepped on, can really screw up the works on this sort of situation. Please folks let's not go off half cocked without doing our home work! That includes talking to the old hands who have been into this issue for a very long time and figuring out who is who and what is what.

[BasementBorn]

I agree Hotrod. It seems the more I read that Intrepid is trying to help the situation and is trying to work with us and the BLM as much as they can. It sounds like the majority of the problems were started long before they owned the mine and it was allowed to operate with fewer regulations. I think we need to work with them and the BLM to find a solution that is beneficial to all involved. If you look on google maps it looks like there is a possible collection ditch that zigzags its way from about 3 miles east of the rest area on I80 out toward Floating Island. What sticks out in my mind is there is nothing that separates it from the area of the tracks. I am wondering if a dike could be built from the east edge of the existing Salduro dike almost straight to Floating island to separate it. That way the mine could pull from the eastern side of the dike and pump their outgoing slurry to the west side of the dike. The idea has been on the table before https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19661003&id=sJAqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=eVcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3937,310244&hl=en

[wheelrdealer]

Kevin Oliver acknowledged my letter and sent me the following attachment. I cannot get the attachment to load but it had some photos of the geologist taking core samples dated today.

BR




BLM Update – Bonneville Salt Flats
Salt Crust Thickness and Racing Conditions
July 17, 2015

On Wednesday July 15th, a team of experts visited and examined the Bonneville Salt Flats to assess the salt crust thickness and gain insight into the current conditions that have been the topic of recent news articles and public concern.

The BLM assessment of the salt crust thickness was conducted by two professional geologists, a university expert and an outdoor recreation planner.  This team looked at surface and subsurface salt crust using boreholes located near mile post 3 and 5 of the current racetrack and also looked at the international track.

The uppermost pure halite (Salt) surface layer is thick and present on the “international track” but it is very thin or missing from large areas of the track at MP 3 and 5.  The normal BSF gypsum layer is exposed and appears like mud.  If salt thickness does not increase soon, it will likely limit racing opportunities on the BSF this year to the shorter track area with good surface salt.  The Southern California Timing Association, sponsor of the BSF Speedweek event will be examining conditions and determining what their race plans are this year.

While it is true that salt crust systems are very dynamic and subject to high variability, the BLM is not taking this situation lightly.  BLM intends to further explore the situation with University of Utah Associate Professor Dr. Brenda Bowen, racing groups and other interested parties to better understand the surface salt crust formation and factors that may influence it.  In the future we may find ways to influence or increase the salt crust thickness with management actions.  Better understanding of all the variables involved with the BSF is a key to unlocking any direct methods to increase surface salt layers and racing opportunities.

It is important to note that the team found total Bonneville salt crust sediments thickness to be unchanged from 2003 with total salt crust sediments depth of 3.2 and 2.2 feet thick at MP 3 and 5 respectively.  The uppermost layer of pure halite that makes the surface suitable for racing has dissolved in areas.  This dissolution could be the result of ponding of water on the surface.  The BSF was subject to above average rainfall in May of 2015.  The causes of localized ponding are being explored and will require more research to understand and possibly mitigate.

[Bob Drury]

  Hot Rod, I really do want to agree with you but  if You go back in the History of the pumping project and if my fading memory is correct, our original agreement was with Reilly Industries who suddenly became Intrepid (and whom for all I know may be the same stockholders).
  As I recall this conveniently meant that the previous agreement between SCTA-BNI, the BLM and Us was now null and void.
  I seem to recall that it took a while to straighten that mess out and over all the years of pumping their have been pumping problems for one reason or another so the amounts of Salt returned haven't been consistent nor able to keep up with the loss of salt depth do to pumping of the brine. I also believe that one of our or the USFRA members goes out every year to measure and hasn't found net gain in the salt depth over the last few years.
  I don't believe that the current agreement can be amended or ended by Intrepid.  Keep in mind that I may be wrong about any or all of what I just typed, but Dan might be able to shed some light.
  I also am under the impression that IF we (STS) were to take the BLM to Federal Court that the case at that level would be a non-jury, Judge only ruling that can only be appealed to a Higher Court if that Court chooses to review the case and decides that the lower ranking court erred in some way.  In other words the BLM would have no more say on the issue than STS.
  I also am under the impression that if they were to lose, they would be ordered to pay STS for all court costs and it would be at the judges discretion to add damages or in our case hopefully force the BLM to Haul the damn piles of Salt back across the Highway.  Marlo Treit might be able to help answer that issue and I wouldn't mind seeing His attorney and SCTA/BNI ex-record holder help STS if offered the chance. Once again I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on T.V.
  As I stated earlier, if the STS has a plan with evidence to back it up, let us know.  There is nothing the BLM can do other than throw more nickel and dime permit issues and if as I stated in a earlier post Every year they print a letter of commendation to us complementing us for being Good Stewards of the Salt so it wouldn't look very good for them if the Media picked up on any efforts to ban us or not honor our current agreements without due cause.
  As far as the environmentalist, they would have a lot of egg on their faces trying to convince the BLM or Department of Interior that the BLM has been lying by printing their yearly letter of commendation about our use and stewardship of the Salt and would need to convince the same Federal Court of our harming the Salt.
  Back to STS, once again I urge them to be open to all of us.  If they have the proof for us to win it doesn't matter who sees it before Legal action is taken. That  may in fact actually encourage the BLM to help find a easy solution. Banning us will not save the Salt Flats.  More pumps would certainly help but the question is could they pump enough to actually raise the level and length of the racing area.
  It is doubtful if a twin engine streamliner under full power could have stopped safely on the excellent salt we had a few years back.  We need ten miles of decent Salt to allow the 400 mph multiple engined vehicles (most of whom are shooting for 500 mph) to safely stop.
  If in fact the STS folks are in negotiations currently then I say fine, keep it under your hats, but so far all that most of us who want to help and whom they have asked to donate money have not been provided with any  evidence of progress except the failed attempt of Ron Main to truck over salt for a trial course.  If the BLM had allowed his valiant effort (at no cost to them) We might be Racing on it next month. Some one has to light a fire and not five years from now.  This battle started decades ago and seems to be idling in neutral as the Salt surface disappears before our eyes. I have over the years been on both sides of protests and don't believe they ever bring positive change nor do I think 1,000 letters will sway any politician who wishes to be re-elected in this day and age.
  I am in no way encouraging anyone to bypass the STS but someone and hopefully the STS needs to reassure the membership and not just a chosen few about their game plan and status.  How much money they have or need is meaningless if they don't have a plan.  We all know what their mission statement is but I feel a current progress report is due to us, the stock holders they represent.
                                                                                                       Just My Opinion,
                                                                                                                     Bob

[Bob Drury]

   First of all let me apologize for failing to read the letter posted above before I hit post on my previous rant.
   Two or three things stand out in the message.
   Notice they reacted due to MEDIA COVERAGE not the years of the SCTA/BNI and the USFRA (who I keep forgetting to mention and whom are in fact a very important part of the STS and who share our rules and records) bending over backwards asking for corrective action. I see no mention suggesting the cause might be pumping or the failure of adequate monitoring of total salt removed vs amount of salt allowed by permit to be removed.  And studying or looking too alleviate or reverse current losses is just another way to stall the STS and publicly deny that they have consistently mislead the public.
  I would like to hear them say "testing and research by independent Geologists, and Scientists who  do not currently receive or have ever received compensation from any Government Agency in similar testing and research.
   Lastly, This tells Me that without Media and Threat of Legal Action, the Salt Flats will be long gone before any Studies, solutions or actual reclamaition efforts could be put into effect.  Draw your own conclusions, I ain't a Rocket Scientest either.                            Bob

[Dakin Engineering]

"....The uppermost layer of pure halite that makes the surface suitable for racing has dissolved in areas.  This dissolution could be the result of ponding of water on the surface..."

Ahem,
  If said ponding runs off into, say, a ditch, where does one find said pure halite?


Just askin,
Sam
#6062

[BasementBorn]

  I would like to hear them say "testing and research by independent Geologists, and Scientists who  do not currently receive or have ever received compensation from any Government Agency in similar testing and research.

Has anyone looked in to if a third party (us) can conduct an independent study? And if we can, why hasn't it been done yet?