Author Topic: Saving the Salt  (Read 548071 times)

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Offline desperate

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #225 on: July 15, 2015, 12:25:40 PM »
OK, now we've hopefully got rid of the statistics, politics & shite, can I ask you a question from 15 teams in the UK whose bikes are already sitting in warehouses in Las Angeles, & who have sold their children to race at Bonneville, mortgaged their houses, & sold their bodies to be there,..................Will we be able to race this August?
Chris Ireland.
Don't push me, I'm close to the edge.

Offline BasementBorn

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #226 on: July 15, 2015, 12:31:46 PM »
Last word I have heard is the SCTA will be on the salt 7/20 and will make a decision by 7/22. From what I understand they are hoping for a minimum of 2 courses with the longest being a minimum of 3 miles. It all depends on what they can find salt for when they are out there and if the weather cooperates. Tough not to know.
Gabe Gorton
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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #227 on: July 15, 2015, 12:34:12 PM »
Sorry Chris, NO ONE can say what the weather will do. Same as last year. Same as the 1982 & 83 rain outs.

IF the weather holds you are sure to have some type of racing at the Bonneville Salt Flats.
Michael LeFevers
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Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline mtkawboy

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #228 on: July 15, 2015, 12:36:28 PM »
Watching that video was like listening to the fiddle as Rome continued to burn. If they do enough studies we will all be dead by the time anyone does anything if they ever do which I doubt

Offline BHR301

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #229 on: July 15, 2015, 12:43:51 PM »
I would fully expect the BLM and the mining company continue to fund studies for enough years that any decision that is made will be moot, by then the salt will be gone...in their mind "problem solved"...

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #230 on: July 15, 2015, 01:04:38 PM »
   Chris, what we need is to make the Public aware of what the BLM has done or failed to do as Steward of a National Treasure.  The facts are easy to assemble as to our sports Stewardship of the Salt including the repairs done after the Boyd Coddington fiasco.  
   Having had the misfortune to be the last person off of the Salt Flats due to Truck problems (four or five years ago) I was truly impressed by the 360 degree panorama that was in view.  No dumpsters, no port-a-potties, No TRASH, just pristine Salt with tire tracks.
   Our under appreciated SCTA/BNI Volunteer's  do a outstanding job of policing the Salt Flats and appeasing the BLM.
   If you go back through the Yearly Event Programs you will find a letter from the BLM congratulating us on our yearly efforts.
   Lets get real here, picketing any Corporation or Business would have a ZERO CHANCE of accomplishing anything other than most likely being escorted off of said property or threatened with a law suit.
   I believe the only two logical choices are to go with the Status Quo, doing nothing and forgetting about the Salt or to bring this to a head and make the Media (and therefor) the Public aware of what has gone on for way too long.  I further believe that if we have our "ducks in a row" with researched evidence proving: that the BLM has continuously mislead the Public and has allowed and continues to allow its practice of permitting wanton destruction of Public (that's us) Property.
  Secondly we need to provide Historically accurate proof that our Sport has in no way caused any lasting impact on the Salt Flats and that WE DO IN FACT PAY THE BLM FOR ANY AND ALL COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH OUR USE OF THE SALT FLATS.
  We should also research the Economic Impact we provide on the local Business's of Wendover and out contributions to support their community.
   I am almost certain that a District Federal Court ruling cannot be reversed without due cause and is binding.
   In Marlo's case He sued the FBI (and as such the Federal Government) who in turn countersued him after they rammed (or Sliced) His Lamborghini Quatro on a Public Right of Way at a Federally controlled Air Strip in Oregon.
   His attorney (Bville record holder Charley Markley) did a magnificent job of researching the subject and appeared in Court with a entourage of opposing Federal Lawyers whom Marlo later described as "cloned assasins all dressed alike".
   Well guess what?  Charley and Marlo won, and that was the end of it.
   We cannot be intimidated by "what ifs".  Without the Salt Flats the SCTA and BNI will go broke.  As it is now, the proceeds from Speedweek pay for the majority of El Mirage racing and the World Finals costs.
   To anyone who has a better Idea, lets hear it.  
   One last thing.  Chris, I have only raced on the Salt since the late nineties but before the Salt Pumping Project got serious, I remember needing to swerve on the Long Course to miss the "brown spots" which were in fact "BROWN".
   There would be no need to pump salt back from the sediment ponds if the Mining was stopped.  That's where the estimated two feet of Salt in the sixties went.
   We are not just talking about what the racers want, but about the Destruction of a Historical Landmark and supposedly "protected" area.
   With adequate research and ONE good attorney we can alter the course of History by standing up to "Big Brother".
   Save the Salt cannot be held responsible for suing the Government and as for the SCTA/BNI, without this issue being settled in our favor, will ultimately go broke anyway.                                                                                              Bob Drury  
Bob Drury

Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #231 on: July 15, 2015, 01:35:06 PM »
Bob:

You make good points.

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #232 on: July 15, 2015, 01:45:52 PM »
The goal is just, the reasoning is sound, the path is charted.

Who among us will lead?
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #233 on: July 15, 2015, 02:03:44 PM »
Would racers have status in a class action suit seeking an injunction against the BLM?
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline hoss

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #234 on: July 15, 2015, 02:57:48 PM »
Regarding status, I believe a racers right to the salt is granted, not inherent, or titled.  A water claim, or encroachment as example, by an affected party harmed by another  would be a right.

Offline John Noonan

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #235 on: July 15, 2015, 03:48:02 PM »
So we cannot have oil based lines for the courses however we can freely allow Intrepid to haul away the resources.  When Intrepid Mining filed their IPO they were at that time the largest IPO of the year..must be money in that Salt  :roll:


Offline Stainless1

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #236 on: July 15, 2015, 03:55:02 PM »
Hey Bob, you forgot the part where the IRS crawled up Marlo's Ass and tormented him for a couple of years.... no connection to winning a suit with the feds...  :roll:

Our current oversight by the BLM is due to that blistering the BLM guy took from the STS lawyer in public...
Stainless
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #237 on: July 15, 2015, 04:09:34 PM »
If you presume the "right" to use the salt flats is similar to water rights, I think the racing use would be one of the senior uses of the salt flats as an organized activity.
Going all the way back to Ab Jenkins he was using the flats to set speed records in 1935, long long before the current mining leases were even a twinkle in someone's eye. Probably the only senior use would be the rail road right of way. Given the historical landmark designation, that places some serious obligations for preservation on the Federal Government just like everyone else. Try to tear down a building designated as an historical land mark and see what happens.

Bill Rishel tested the salt as a venue for racing in 1907
railway line across the Bonneville Salt Flats was completed in 1910 by Southern Pacific Railroad linking Salt Lake City and San Francisco.
First speed record set in 1914 by Teddy Tetzlaff
Potash  extraction  was  the  first  commercial  use  of  the Bonneville Salt Flats, and development of potash processing from Salt Flat brines was started by the Utah Salduro Company  in  1917.
Ab Jenkins, driving a Studebaker, beat a special excursion train 1925

http://historytogo.utah.gov/places/historical_places/bonnevillesaltflats.html
Quote
the area's first use as raceway was conceived by publisher William Randolph Hearst in a publicity stunt. Hearst hired William Rishel of Cheyenne, Wyoming, to attempt a crossing on bicycle. Rishel completed the journey, crossing the salt flats in 22 hours.

Active neglect of their statutory responsibilities here is no different than the case law for pollution mitigation and restoration in other mining uses. There is a lot of case law for mining companies to "do no harm" regarding secondary impacts outside their actual mining claim.


http://www.rodauthority.com/news/potash-mining-threatens-bonneville-salt-flats/
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/pdfs.Par.16381.File.dat/BSF%20Area%20Map.pdf
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/pdfs.Par.43019.File.dat/Bonneville%20Salt%20Flats%20FAQ.pdf

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs135-97/PDF/FS97-135.pdf   < - - - -  NOTE this documents change area of salt crust between 1992 and 1993 (fig 3 page 4)

(it shows the mechanics of changes in salt due to extensive flooding tends to spread out salt crust to cover a larger area with a thinner crust. If true this recent flooding episode may take a few years to re-consolidate the salt into a smaller thick deposit as brief rains wash the extended salt crust back into the primary basin )


Quote
On the basis of model simulations, the loss of crystalline salt from the playa surface is estimated to be about 975,000 tons per year. The concurrent subsurface loss of salt in solution was computed to be 850,000 tons per year.
Uncertainties exist in the simulations because they were made from limited data, and these uncertainties contribute to simulation errors. The difference in computed loss of crystalline salt and salt transported through subsurface outflow of brine is within the acceptable simulation error.On the basis of model simulations, the loss of crystalline salt from the playa surface is estimated to be about 975,000 tons per year. The concurrent subsurface loss of salt in solution was computed to be 850,000 tons per year.
Uncertainties exist in the simulations because they were made from limited data, and these uncertainties contribute to simulation errors. The difference in computed loss of crystalline salt and salt transported through subsurface outflow of brine is within the acceptable simulation error.


http://saltflats.com/newsletters/BLM_GSL_2002.pdf

Quote
Public Land Order 852
On May 26, 1952, 8,927 acres of public land on that portion of the Bonneville Salt Flats containing the historical circular  track  was  withdrawn  from  mineral  location,  and reserved for administration as an automobile racing and testing  ground.    The  withdrawal,  which  was  subject  to  valid existing rights, prohibited mineral prospecting, location, or purchase under the mining laws.
Prior to 1949, the circular track was the most popular track on the salt; however, when the Bonneville Nationals annual racing event began in 1949, the straight or International Track became the track of choice.
It is unclear as to why the International Track was not included in the PLO 852 withdrawal.  The withdrawal expired in 1982 (Morgan, 1985, p. 6).


On December 18, 1975, 36,650 acres of Bonneville Salt Flats were officially listed on the National Register of Historic Places.  By virtue of this listing, the designated acreage was  afforded  two  protections  under  the  National  Historic Preservation Act of 1966 (P.L. 89-665).  
• An assessment of the effects of such a project on the listed site will be made, and
• The head of the involved federal agency or department shall afford the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation  a  reasonable  opportunity  to  comment  on  the  proposed project.
These  two  protections  must  be  implemented  prior  to expending federal funds for a proposed federal or federally assisted project that could have potential to affect any district, site, building, structure, or object that is included in the National Register:



Just a start --- google is your friend!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 04:15:59 PM by hotrod »

Offline rgdavid

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Re: Poor Salt Conditions - all topics merged into one
« Reply #238 on: July 15, 2015, 04:17:01 PM »
Hello,
i'll never build a car,
i'll never run at bonneville,
but....
its one of the most respected and awe inspiring places for any motorhead,
an institution in its own being and the meca and dreams of many.

Could a world wide petition to give to the gouvrnement help ?
stating that bonneville is a historical world and national famous event and institution .
can a moral side such as this be used as evidence in court. (ie:they are ruining the dreams and activites of many wordwide ) ?

Perhaps with such a petition , would it help in court ?

Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Open Letter to the BLM
« Reply #239 on: July 15, 2015, 04:18:42 PM »
Tom:

Good point ... never pi$$off the lady at the DMV!

My letter was respectful but explained the connection and experience amateur racing on the salt. Here it is for all to see. There is nothing to gain from scolding and insulting a public official.

Mr. Kevin Oliver
District Manager
BLM Utah State Office
2370 S. Decker Lake Blvd.
West Valley City, UT 84119

Via email: kevin_oliver@blm.gov

Dear Mr. Oliver:

My name is Bill Reilly and I live in South Florida. I am writing you today to let you know me and a great number of others, concern for the health of the Bonneville Salt Flats. In 1970 I made a promise to my mother that someday I would drive a car 200 miles per hour on the Bonneville Salt Flats. I am sure she told me to get back to my homework and never thought about that statement again. Forty years later when I turned 50 I realized I had not made an attempt to even go to Bonneville much less race there. So later that year I bought a almost complete land speed car, completed the build, tested it and headed out to Bonneville. Now I am a little guy working for a pay check and just the support equipment, travel expense and spare parts are a significant investment…not including the car and the labor. Long story short, we arrived August 2011 as rookies. We had a great Speed Week, broke some parts but managed to get one run in on the last day of 203.4 miles per hour. It was 31 miles per hour slower than the record but my personal best speed and it was above that commitment number I made 42 years before. When I got that time ticket, I glanced up at the beautiful Utah sky and said, well Mom, better late than never with the biggest smile since the birth of my children.
I am telling you this story for the simple reason, Bonneville is more than a place or a race…it is the only place where people can fulfill their dream of a little guy racer going faster than they or perhaps anyone has in their class. Without a healthy salt flat surface to race on generations of builders and races will never have a shot at their dream. Imagine if all of the football fields, practice, high school and college were to suddenly vanish. That there was no longer a place for kids, high schoolers, college athletes to play? A lot of people that enjoy the sport but were not able or up to the professional level would be deprived of their opportunity to go as far as their skill and drive would let them. When Bonneville goes so does the opportunity for all of the amateur racers and builders that were not lucky enough to be born in a racing dynasty family and have to scrape together their own humble land speed racing program.
Every racer I have talked to or read their writings wants to work with SCTA and BNA to preserve our favorite racing venue. I am amazed at the change in the salt since my first event in 2011. Something has to be done and done now. There are only two ways things get done in the public sector, either we choose to work together or the damaged party brings a tremendous amount of political pressure to force change. I would prefer working together versus the second technique. I am asking you to meet with the people representing the racers and work on the real reasons the salt is deteriorating and move towards a solution. Please understand from our perspective we have to fight for the preservation of our most sacred land speed venue. Now is the time for you and BLM to act. We will not be ignored and we will not go away. Do the right thing and let's work together.

Respectfully,


Bill Reilly

my 2 cents.

Bill
ECTA    Maxton D/CGALT  Record Holder 167.522
ECTA    Maxton D/CBGALT Record Holder 166.715

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