Saving the Salt

[BasementBorn]

DaveB -  there are a couple studies on the BLM website http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/bonneville_salt_flats.html There is a bunch of stuff on the USGS website, I just searched for it but don't have time right now to look through all the info. I think I will take a look at some of the info just out of curiosity.

Thank you BasementBorn! I have already been reading the BLM stuff but what I am looking for is technical information that goes counter to them. Thank you for directing me to the U. S. Geological Survey web site. My first search of salt flats on their site brought up a very good 1997 article from this government entity, USGS, that proves salt loss.

I don't know if any of this could ever do any good but if the BLM would listen to anything (or be made to listen) it is this kind of research article especially from a government agency that may have a chance.

Might check out the Utah Government Digital Library. I searched for "slat flats study" and a bunch came up.

[Stan Back]

One thing no one has commented on -- and it's a new course of action . . .
"We will make a decision no later than July 22."

This is the first time in my memory that SCTA has done that.  Saves the USA and Canadian long-haulers from making the trip -- but also won't allow a meet to happen should some miracle occur after the decision.  Ballsy.

Personally, I'd hold off buying any Pre-Entries or room packages for a while.  There is a refund policy for cancelled meets, but how it works with transferred entries I don't know.

I'd bet that if the Short Course meet comes about, there ought to be plenty of rooms and entries available.

[USFRAMONTE]

A question that has been on my mind for a long time. What if any difference is there between what is inside the Salduro dike and what is outside.  Is the crust inside any thicker or thinner, and what about the compostion of chemical compounds?
Again more rambling thoughts.

[manta22]

Dr Smirking, PhD seems to have very little hard data. I wonder if the BLM is a source of some financial grants that may color the opinions of the "experts"?

Has anyone ever looked at satellite photos of the salt flats to see the changes over the past 50 years?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[MAZDA1807]

I used Google Earth about 20 minutes ago, you can see the mud flow from last August. Peter.

[nrhs sales]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the current conditions at the salt and whether speedweek was going to happen?

[n49racer]

I'm sure it has been tried before, but what about the area north of floating mountain. Yes, I'm aware it's part of the Air Force weapons range. Is it absolutely off the table or might there be a possibility? From the satellite pics it looks pretty good.

ted

[jacksoni]

Are any of the Presidential candidates for 2016 active Land Speed Racers?

That might be our best hope of getting some high-level attention to the Bonneville Salt Flats. 

We need some VERY HIGH PROFILE folks on our side.

Steve.

I doubt that we can afford a politician.

I've often thought about that, but the conflict of interests between conservation groups, mining money and a very small number of recreational users isn't likely to let a candidate speak in opposition to the mining interests or the Sierra Club.  The right would paint such a person as a "tree hugger", the left, as one sucking off of the teat of big business.

It's a peculiar détente we find ourselves in the crosshairs of.

It has been said before. BLM will not listen to us. They might listen to the check writers in some way. Write your congressmen/Senators and to the Utah group as well. Explain the situation and disagreement we have with the party line etc etc.Costs a few electrons as can be done by email or the outrageous PO stamp rates.  May not do much but can't hurt and if enough mail filters in, maybe someone will ask a question.

[BasementBorn]

so according to this... rdcc.utah.gov/plpco/public/getAttachment.action?attachmentId=46093
a salt study in the area of the track must be completed by the end of 2018. It is to be arranged by the operator/lessee (Interpid) for a third party contractor with oversight of the BLM. If they find that the volume is decreasing and it is the mining company's fault then the BLM can revise the terms of their lease in 2023.

Seems to me that save the salt (or at least someone acting in the interest of the racing community) should have been worked in to that equation. Right now it is just intrepid, a contractor hired by Intrepid, and the BLM.

[hotrod]

If you actually dig into some of those studies you will see that the last one they did evaluated the entire salt deposit.
That data is often misrepresented as stating that the "salt is several feet thick". That is not what the report said, it said the entire deposit is several feet thick but it is built like a layer cake. A top crust a few inches thick under which is a layer of loose salt crystals then a layer of gypsum and then salty mud below that.  The part we are concerned about the top consolidated crust in that study at its thickest point was only about 6-8 inches thick.

They still show an image on their web site taken during that salt survey project showing the salt crust just a few inches thick.

http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.40484.Image.-1.-1.1.gif
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.44496.Image.-1.-1.1.gif


(working from memory here I used to have the data posted on my web site but I shut it down due to very low usage).
That "halite" crust thickest point in their bore holes was well down the international course off to the east near the boundary of the recreation area.

At work right now so don't have the time to dig out the original info, but will see if I can find it later.

I do remember that in 1972 the lands end road had just about the exact same free board as it currently does where the spring time water a few inches deep was lapping on the embankment just off the road.

Last time I physically measured the salt thickness near the middle of the international course it was around 3/4 to 1 inches thick at that location.
That was during the shoot out 3 years ago.

[SPARKY]

guys we can get organized and make a difference---In my opinion that will have to be political induced!!

Several are on the right track but it we take week in week out efforts year in year out  not just when we do not get to run!!!!!!!

[kiwi belly tank]

I'm sure it has been tried before, but what about the area north of floating mountain. Yes, I'm aware it's part of the Air Force weapons range. Is it absolutely off the table or might there be a possibility? From the satellite pics it looks pretty good.

ted

The BLM recently sold the mining rights to the salt flat north of Silver Island Mountains to a Canadian company & it's my understanding they will dig it up & haul it away.
  Sid.

[Bob Drury]

  Sparky, Politicians only care about two things: Not losing any jobs in their districts that pay living wages (Casino's generally don't, Intrepid does), and not pissing off any corporate donors including stockholders of Intrepid, the Rail Road, etc.
  We must take the Federal Government to Court.  It can be done in Salt Lake City.  It only takes MONEY for research to prove that the BLM neglected their duties for the last thirty years or so in enforcing the Salt Removal Permits.  Lawyers and legal researchers need fuel for their Legal Engine... MONEY.
  Ninety percent of us Racers don't have much MONEY but we can't expect Ron, George, The Mariannis and the other folks in that top ten percent to carry the entire load.
  My suggestion is that if We can't race and we get our entry MONEY back, that each entrant give at least half or more of it to SAVE THE SALT and the rest to Seldom Seen Slim for providing this site so we can have this discourse.  Caveat:  I am not running my car this year but will do all that I can to support both of the above.
  If 500 entrants gave $300. apiece, that adds up to $150,000. bucks.  And that folks is the kind of MONEY it will take to Sue the Government.  It has been done by others and won.  Ask Marlo Treit.  Ask the Tree Huggers or Greenpeace.  Love em or Hate em, they have proven it can be done.
  By the way, I thought Stuart (who I don't know or what group He represents) did a fairly good job considering He only was given about five minutes of Air time.  I only wish that He would have brought up and pushed the known salt depth in the sixties to counter Mz. Smiley Face who probably wasn't born before the 80's and couldn't give a Subaru one way or the other.                                                              "One Run" Bob Drury

[generatorshovel]

"Our" lake (lake Gairdner) has had varying conditions in the time I have been there, from 2004, 'till 2015, I have seen it flat & dry, scattered with the usual octagonal pressure ridges, , no ridges, and weird crystaline "growths".
While trying to erect shade structures, track markers & the like the salt has been soft (damp), hard , hard for 1/2", than soft (once the crust was gone thru), and as hard as rocks well below the depth of the pegs/nails/ tec screws being driven into it.
We have had silt washed onto the lake during heavy rains from the surrounding hills, which seems to migrate thru the salt over time, as the wet / dry cycles take place.
We have had a hard salt crust deposited over this silt some years, some years there is very little "loose" crystals sitting on to of the crust, but I have seen years where there is very little ?
The "road" to the pits (usually 3 miles from the lake access point,  on the salt) can become compacted by traffic to & from the pit area, and can be seen from satellite images, other years, there is minimum change in this area and compaction is not a factor ?
Many have commented that 2015 salt conditions were "the best they have seen", but I have seen much better in previous years than this one.
If only we understood why ?
Tiny

[Stainless1]

Well I think anyone can put anything in Wikipedia... just hit the edit link

Just because you see it on the internet or read it in the paper does not make it true  

Stainless, so you believe the BLM is telling the truth when they say the salt is as thick today as in 1988?

obviously you did not read that reply in the context of the discussion... I started racing in 78, the salt crust could be seen where the dug the ditches... it was about a foot thick... It was all but impossible to drive a tent peg... the ones you got at the store were useless... had to have those big ass nails, 1/4 inch and 7 or 8 inches long.  Anyone that believes everything written on Wikipedia has to be true should realize if they wanted to, all they need to do is just edit it and tell it the way they wanted...

Again.... just because you see in on the internet or read it in the paper it does not make it true... 

have you seen Forrest Gump... 

Does that answer the stupidest question I've seen in a long time!!! 

And... Yes I already told the SCTA we would be there if there was a race.  Jim us lakester drivers would show up, but I heard it was just going to be a bike race so I guess we will bring the bike... just another 

Why don't we just sit tight and see what happens... if the weather cooperates we will be racing.