Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies

[Peter Jack]

Maybe get a rule book and see what class you might fit. It's not customary for an organization to change their rules to accomodate each new entrant and what they might like to run. Hopefully a little further exploration will reveal a class that suits what you want to do.

I thought your name was somewhat familiar. I Googled it and realized right away where I'd seen it. I was fairly active in the homebuilt aircraft community quite some time ago. I hope this endeavour works out for you.

Pete

[MrEracer]

Thanks Pete,
  I'm not looking for concessions, I'm new here and just trying to find my nitch.  I don't do well in over regulated sports so some of this is frustrating to me.  I'll just roll with this for while, I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet...
Shirl

[redhotracing]

Okay, I am running an OEM EFI computer and injection system, but I'm not swapping a stock engine into an altered coupe.  It's an 'A' stroker LS engine, 454 cid, and there is no way to run something like that with stock injectors and factory tune.  If I can't run injectors appropriate for the power (700 hp) and the tune to go with it I will be rethinking my interest in LSR.  That's like saying you have to run the stock carb and jetting in your carb'd, stroker 'A' engine...
SD

You may be able to run that LSX with a carb, not sure on if coil packs and ECU's are
regulated in Classic categories. It can be done, but not with EFI in those classes. Can
always run Altered while benefiting from modern engine tech and older body aero...

[dw230]

The LSX combo with EFI in a Monza will have to run in the MODIFIED category, ALTERED classes(because of the non-OEM frame).

The no EFI restriction in the classic classes does indeed refer to the body as Jim Dinceau remembers. Engine swaps are allowed in many, many classes but it is the body that places the car in the correct class by year break.

DW

[RichFox]

The category was created for people who felt they were being left behind by newer technology. They didn't want to get involved with EFI, or newer more aero body styles and other wizz bang stuff. So it was proposed that EFI would be disallowed. Then some people said, "What if I put in an engine that came with EFI?" So OEM EFI was allowed. But it is still a category for older, low tech cars. So you can use mechanical Fuel Injection or a carburetor in your Sunbird. I don't think a Monza body gives up much if anything to the other cars in Altered class. So if you really really want to use EFI you can just run in Alt.  

[Stan Back]

And now I just saw Rich's response . . . just run Altered.

[MrEracer]

Stan,
  Your records are safe from me for a few years.  The 700 hp LSX I mentioned is my entry level engine made from left over parts I have laying around (that includes the car which I built for the Silver State 20 years ago).  I'm running over 850 NA hp in my race boat, a 468 EFI LSX on corn against a 515 cid class limit.  It's not easy running a small block in a big block world.  I have also built 1000 hp NA LS motors (on C16) for drag cars...  All it takes is money.  I don't have a problem running Modified Altered, it just means I have to work harder...    As mentioned above, my non OEM frame precludes Classic anyway.  This is starting to look like a thead jack, sorry..
Shirl

[bearingburner]

If you don't want to be over regulated run the lakester or streamliner Classes

[Saltfever]

Edit . . .  Then some people said, "What if I put in an engine that came with EFI?" So OEM EFI was allowed. But it is still a category for older, low tech cars.

So Rich are you saying you can do an engine swap (like an SBC into a falcon) and you can run the stock SBC EFI in Classic Gas? I know the rule allows OEM EFI on page 70, but I thought the motor (and its EFI) had to be OEM with the car, (like in a production class). Can Classic Gas Class swap in an different, manufacturer's modern engine and use the OEM EFI that came with the motor?

[RichFox]

That was my understanding. At the time this rule was implemented the purpose was to allow an engine swap that retained the EFI that the engine came with. Now we all know that rules have a way of evolving into something other than the original meaning, as the original rule makers move on and are replaced by new people who may not remember why that rule was adopted. For this reason, only the current board can give you a current reading on what is and isn't allowed today. I see that the rules say the ignition can be a crank trigger closed loop unit, but it must be original to the year and model of the car. Not the engine. How's that going to happen?

[JR529]

I cant speak to the intentions of people 10+ ago, but in 2014 the only EFI that is allowed in Classic is OEM EFI for the year and body of the vehicle entered, not the engine. So if the CAR came with EFI, it was allowed to keep it.

That is what was told to a competitor by the Coupe and Sedan Committee this year when asked this exact question.

So, If you put a LS engine in a Monza in Classic then the stock LS EFI must be removed because it is not OEM for the vehicle entered. And in my opinion, ANYBODY showing up in Classic with any form of EFI will get their car picked to pieces to ensure the EFI is 100% OEM and little slack or sympathy will be shown. If you have EFI then run in Modified. Classic is for mechanical injection and carbs.

[Saltfever]

That is my understanding also, but now I'm not sure. Rich also raised a good point on the ignition. I'll have another post up in a few minutes with pictures.

[Saltfever]

I thought the intent in Classic was to not allow non-OEM EFI as well as computerized engine management or closed loop feedback to the ECU. But stock OEM stuff is ok. So back in 81 if coil-on-plug and closed loop ECU were stock, ok. But what car had all that stock in 81? And more importantly, would it be sophisticated enough to run it 33 years later without some (not allowed) modifications? It’s probably safe to say this part of the rule is intact and fairly well understood for production class. But Classic allows engine swaps in gas class. That kind of muddies the waters. 

Page 70 is very clear that sensor controlled ignitions “are allowed but must be stock and unmodified in any way for the year and model of the vehicle entered.”

Here are pics of one of my most respected Classic cars. Pictures are from records set in 2010. Everybody runs a crank trigger ignition in Classic. (Even with carburetors). However, crank triggers are Hall Effect sensor triggered. So non-stock, modified, sensor controlled ignition are being used in all classic classes.

I think the intent was to not allow, distributorless, COP, computer controlled ignition, regardless of engine swap. That is quite a bit different from an MSD trigger wheel firing a distributor. But I don't know now. 

 

[RichFox]

I don't know how many cars came with factory EFI between 1928 and 1981. None that I owned. I would say whoever told you that needs to think hard about how much sense it makes. The obvious thing to do to clear this up would be to ban any EFI, as was the first proposal. Or go the other way and make it run what you brung. And IMHO an even better idea would have been to just leave the Altered rules as they were and not have the Classic Category. Then everybody could run what they wanted and if you were not competitive, live with it. I do.

[Saltfever]

Rich, I didn’t mean to infer that stuff was available pre 1981. I don’t know.  What I meant was the way the rule is written it would allow pre-81 EFI stuff to be legal. If it existed at that time and is stock I have no problem with it running. Sometimes rules are written to avoid unintended consequences. And it appears they didn’t want to accidently excommunicate an OEM application they may not know about. As you can guess I love the Classic class and I can see why it was considered in the first place. But I also see your point about competing an older body in an aero battle. Any record is an especially big achievement.

But thanks for raising the ignition question. I was just starting a tear down a core EFI motor this week for Classic Gas and about to throw out the ignition harness assembly and most of the EFI stuff. This thread is timely and important to me.

This is the same car in 2011 in Impound with another record. Same crank trigger. You are looking down on top of the electric water pump. The crank trigger is underneath circled in red. A non-OEM, sensor controlled trigger is used all the time.

Maybe the rule should be clarified. Classic is about body style more than anything else and "some" older technologies. But an engine swap confuses that a little.

Opps . . . I see the pic is too dark. I tried to fix it in the next post.