Author Topic: The 200 Club  (Read 28679 times)

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Offline Dynoroom

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The 200 Club
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2006, 10:03:05 PM »
Quote from: D-Type
To an outsider like myself the idea of 'minimums' is very strange.

I can understand the basic 'Set a speed over 200mph' and you qualify.

I can understand that it was getting a bit crowded and they changed it to 'Set a new (class) record at over 200mph' and you qualify.

But I can't get my head around 'Set a new record at over 200mph isn't good enough you ALSO have to exceed an arbitrary minimum set by a club committee' and you qualify.  Why?  What purpose do these minimums serve?  Or have I missed part of the story?   :?:

I'm not trying to take the mickey - I genuinely don't understand


Part of the problem came about as new classes were established. I'll use Blown Gas Streamliner as an example, at one time there wasn't a "Gas" streamliner class, but they (the SCTA) added one. Currently the record of 262.196 but before that record was set in 2004 there was no record. The 2 club minimum is 300 mph. If the "C" record is 328 & the "D" record is 315 it stands to reason that the "B" record could be over 300. The real problem comes by adding more classes, if all you had to do was bring a 'liner to the salt and coast through at 200 mph the put in your buddy & go 205 then his friend at 210 it could make a mockery of what the 2 club was meant to be....JMHO.
The other part of the problem is the salt condition & the number of participants. In the past you had to qualify for a record, then the next morning you had to two way it to get the record, quite a bit tougher than the way we do it today, but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms. We make more classes so we won't lose participants and now we have people not coming because it's to crowded....
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline Freud

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He sees the situation perfectly.......
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2006, 01:50:04 AM »
Compare today to yesteryear. 200 MPH, with or without the 2 Club, was a real challenge. Membership in some car clubs required a car that would exceed 100 MPH... (example) In 1950 the Century Toppers. Now a pro football player, without a motorcycle endorcement on his license, can go purchase a motorcycle that will exceed 190 MPH on the salt and be running under warranty.

With that in mind.........how much of a challenge is it to just exceed 200 MPH? In some instances it is difficult depending on the chosen machine. European sport models exceed 200 MPH on the autobahn. They may have a little traction problem on the salt but they will haul it there also. NASCAR builds cars that can easily exceed 200 MPH and for long periods of time. Plate races keep those speeds down to a lower level.

It's easy enough for many people to bankroll these machines. All that's needed is cubic money.


Technology has raised the bar to levels never dreamed of in 1950. Speeds have elevated and respect is achieved when we exceed the accomplishment of someone who has established a record performance using similiar equipment. Art Christman would stand no change with his coupe if he is compared to Lindsley and Leggitt. So a 200 MPH speed may fulfill a dream but it may have little importance when compared to 275 MPH by a car in the same class. A 200 Club membership in 1955 was considerably different than a 200 Club entry in 2006. Just accomplishing 200 MPH in 1955 was staggering and in 2006 exceeding 200 MPH and a prior record, well above that number, is also difficult. Having to exceed that record makes the Red Hat valid. Minimums in newly established classes are necessary to maintain credibility in the 2 Club. When a crate motor in a slippery chassis can exceed 200 MPH, some respect must be shown for the efforts of our earlier speed champions. The minimums may be challenged but the officials that established them were only protecting the integrity of the 2 Club.


Quoting Michael LeFevers:
 "The other part of the problem is the salt condition & the number of participants. In the past you had to qualify for a record, then the next morning you had to two way it to get the record, quite a bit tougher than the way we do it today, but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms. We make more classes so we won't lose participants and now we have people not coming because it's to crowded...."
_________

So there have been changes in record establishing requirement. We accept the new parameters. The speeds are elevated but the conditions under which they must be met have been changed to accomodate the masses. Two passes will now set a record. The pressure of a qualifying pass above the record and then a down and back the next morning has been reduced. That may allow some people to set a record that would not have achieved it in the past but it's still not easy.

Now growth is beginning to be a problem. We still have the same number of hours to race but an additional 20% in the entrees will stress this event to be the most organized and efficient in it's history. Mother Nature with wind and rain can upset the entire program and there's nothing the officials can do about it. Ask our LSR friends from Australia about course conditions. She dumped on them earlier this year. The number of spectators is increasing many fold. BNI/SCTA will be hard pressed to satisfy the racers as they have in past years. Some of the racers that have enjoyed prior events may shake their heads and just toss in the towel. This is not an attitude of superiority but more one of resignation.

Enjoy what we have under the conditions that are available. It's still one of the most challenging speed events on planet earth. It's enjoyed by a family of racers with the most heart and enthusiasm of any motor sport. Respect your fellow racer because he probably has brought his best effort even if it's many levels below yours.

Last of all, respect the officials and volunteers that make this event happen. They too get frustrated. They would earn more money by working at Wal-Mart and they wouldn't have to roll out of bed at 4:00AM.

FREUD
Since '63

aswracing

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The 200 Club
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2006, 09:39:39 AM »
I understand all that but have a question ...

Shouldn't 2 club minimums be revisited considering rule changes?

Specifically, the exclusion of aftermarket engines from the "M" classes for the bikes. It really changes the equation and makes certain minimums a whole lot tougher.

I remember the rationalization for them had something to do with how much power a Pro-Mod motor could make. A Pro-Mod motor is no longer legal in "M".

Offline Freud

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2 Club prestige
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2006, 10:42:39 AM »
After having slept on it overnight, I think it requires an admittance to the 300 MPH Chapter now to compare to the prestige of membership in the 2 Club when it all started.

FREUD
Since '63

Offline Sumner

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Re: 2 Club prestige
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2006, 01:03:17 PM »
Quote from: Freud
After having slept on it overnight, I think it requires an admittance to the 300 MPH Chapter now to compare to the prestige of membership in the 2 Club when it all started.

FREUD


Hey Freud I thought your other post was right on, but I'll have to disagree with this one  :wink: .

I'll agree that what we have to work with has changed tremendously over the years, but it is available to everyone and I think most of the over 200 mph records are at a place you still have to work pretty hard to get one.

I think someone like John R who is close to running over 200 mph with 92 cubic inches in a street car should get the same respect for his accomplishments as someone who ran over 200 in the 50's.

I don't have a problem with the minimums and the way you go about getting into the 2 club now.  Time for me to go take a nap and sleep on it 8) .

c ya, Sum

Offline Dynoroom

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Re:another day...
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2006, 01:43:36 PM »
Quote from: Freud

So there have been changes in record establishing requirement. We accept the new parameters. The speeds are elevated but the conditions under which they must be met have been changed to accomodate the masses. Two passes will now set a record. The pressure of a qualifying pass above the record and then a down and back the next morning has been reduced. That may allow some people to set a record that would not have achieved it in the past but it's still not easy.
FREUD


I'm not saying it's easy just not as hard as it was.  :wink:
All you need to do is look in the program with the 2 club listing. goes from 5 to 10 members per year to about double that. But we do have more people and better equipment too so...
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

dwarner

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The 200 Club
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2006, 01:45:03 PM »
"Shouldn't 2 club minimums be revisited considering rule changes? "

Aaron,

I thought that Pat and Scott had addressed this in a post indicating that the mc minimums would be looked at and modified were appropriate.

DW

aswracing

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The 200 Club
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2006, 02:12:33 PM »
Thanks Dan, I must've missed it. I read only a fraction of the board.

aswracing

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The 200 Club
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2006, 02:35:51 PM »
BTW, I built a new stock-case motor for the 1350 bike so that I could keep running it in M. The chassis on that bike is a long way from being a good "A" chassis so I took the path of least resistance, and on a smaller motor it's more feasible to use stock cases. Did a small bore/long stroke so I wouldn't have to bore the cases so big. It's making competitive power and on the dyno at least the cases haven't broke. We'll see if it'll go 3 miles a couple times, though, that's a whole 'nother level of test. Hope to bring it to World Finals with that motor. It'll use the short stroke/big bore S&S cased motor at Bub's, since it's M legal there. Thank god for the Bub's meet, else that motor would be useless, and I've never even had the chance to race it, the rule change obsoleted it before I had the chance.

I'm going the other way on the 1650cc bike, though. Making a motor that big and that powerful on stock cases is just begging for a failure. So I'm moving that one to A for BNI meets. It'll be M at Bub's though.

Someday I hope these guys learn how their off the cuff rules changes hit us in the pocket books and skew the records. They need to think it through and solicit input from the people actually doing it before doing such things. But that horse is dead. I've adapted as best I can without building entirely new bikes.

Offline Glen

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the 200
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2006, 03:12:25 PM »
I know several racers that worked very hard for as many as 30 years to get in the Bonneville 200 club. They did it by breaking an existing record to achieve this goal, I don't think any of them would have it any other way. If another venue gives everyone a 200 mph membership just because they went over 200 mph it don't seem to me that it means as much as besting the old record. It's fine for some, but hell if they don't run against an existing class record it don't mean much in my book.
I like what SCTA/BNI and the Bonneville 200MPH club has and the rewards each one worked so hard for. :D
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

Offline jimmy six

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The 200 Club
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2006, 03:25:29 PM »
When JohnR gets into the 2 Club in his "H" He will definately get the praise from me for his achievments. He has chosen a class which has no minimum with the exception of the 200 MPH barrier because it was thought it may never be reached.

When my son and I decided to try for it, the same was available to us. No real minimum save the challenge of 200.

Challenge of the speeds is what brings us all together. If you choose to challenge the Burklands or Teague more power to you; same for the Costella/Yacoucci team. You know the speeds you need.

Thanks Freud for your "rant"...J.D.
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

dwarner

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The 200 Club
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2006, 03:31:01 PM »
Follow up to JD.

When I got in the club there was a BNI record of 221, club minimum of 230. I thought "what a great time to drop the minimums", worked on it and made the minimum(barely).

Satisfaction guarenteed.

DW

Offline Bob Drury

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The 200 Club
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2006, 07:44:18 PM »
Mike, I think your explanation of how the  Two Club records and how the minimums are set is a very good example of how rules can be stated with as little confusion as possible.  My only gripe is that when cars are shifted (by rules) to another class, the records go with them.  I believe this only confuses the issue further.  I believe the records should remain where set, and if the entrant sets a record in the newly mandated class, more power to him or her.  The fact that the existing rules are changed should have no bearing on standing class records.
Bob Drury

Offline KeithTurk

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The 200 Club
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2006, 11:30:16 PM »
Bob... Dan moved my C/FALT record to the C/FCALT or classic category when that set of classes were created... He knew my car... and it keeps the record books correct for the type of equipment ran... fair enough ( Muroc record by the way )
Keith Turk
 D Gas Modified Sports
 246.555 mph

Offline Bob Drury

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The 200 Club
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2006, 11:58:18 PM »
Keith, the problem I have with that is if you used a EFI to set the original record in fuel altered, your record is now illegal in Classic fuel altered.  Now if you want to run your car back in fuel altered, you have to run a EFI, while the 81 up cars can run anything they like........go figure..........
Bob Drury