Suggestions on what kind of N/A F engine to build

[Gary Perkinson]

Figure Ill throw this out there to pick youze guys brains. If one were wanting to build a naturally aspirated F size engine 2.016 to 3.014 L 123.00 to 183.99 cid, which would be the best route and the easiest way to make good power? Ive never dealt with engines of this size so I have no idea. I know you can take a SBC 350 and take 4 pistons and rods out of it to get within the parameters. What else is out there guys. Thanks in advance

What about GM's Ecotec I4? I've got one in my HHR (which I ran stock at Wilmington and Loring), and it's a great little power plant--I'm getting a new Ecotec block and a turbo next month from ZZ Performance in Michigan. They've had their forged and girdled block up to 900 rwhp without failure, and their standard Gen 2+ blocks can easily handle 500 hp with forged internals. I'm not trying to shill for them here, but if you're interested, their site is pretty informative: www.zzperformance.com.

Gary

[Jon]

I think there is some sort of hybrid RB you can cobble together by mixing top and bottom ends?

The Aussie RB30 is a SOHC, put a RB25 head on it and you get a very nice 3litre.
Plenty of aftermarket parts available for them.
DavieB put one together in a street car, pretty stock with a seat of the pants tune could eat most 5l V8 street cars ok, loved to rev, copped some abuse.

jon

[Rex Schimmer]

Frankie,
When you talk about 3 liter N/A motors it really gets down to dollars, doesn't it always! I would think that your minimum horse power for a competitive 3 liter (181 cu.in.) should be 400 hp, which can give you a number of options. If you can afford the "exotic" the choices run from former F1 motors, Cosworth DFVs, good for around 550 hp, are available for $50K+, some IRL motors can be had for considerably less, ask Tony Perra. Going down from there you could have a 181 inch midget motor built with all the bells and whistles for around $30-35K pan to injectors and probably  have 415 hp +. Any of the  "Rice Burner" 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines that are in the 3 liter area are certainly good candidates especially the earlier 4 valve DOHC units which have fewer concessions to emissions I would think could be good choices and as Jon says there are lots of speed improvement parts available. Although most of these 4 cylinder units would need at least a new crank to get to 3 liters and many of the 6 cylinder units, such as the Ford V6 would require development of almost all parts to make it a good NA engine that gets it to the 400 hp level.

If you are looking to be able to do it your self, I think I would look at the midget 4 cylinder option. There are some good iron and aluminum 4 cylinder blocks available that can be made to accept either the Chevrolet or Ford NASCAR heads. Good cranks, rods and pistons are also available and very well developed. Many parts, including blocks, are available as "race proven" i.e. used and still have good life left in them. The best thing is that if you have any experience with Chevy or Ford V8 engine building then you should easily be able to do a 4 cylinder based upon their design. And of course you can go with the 1/2 of a V8 approach which has and is being done successfully by the McMeekin team using 1/2 of a Ford V8.

Lots of ideas and options.

Rex

[dw230]

Jimmie Stevens Arias midget engine was for sale on this site recently. Set several records in the Costella-Yacoucci streamliner. Check the for sale section on the site.

DW

[dw230]

Here, I did the lookup for you:

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,12828.0.html

DW

[Rick Byrnes]

Midget Engine
ESSLINGER.  any displacement...
I have run a 2.5L disp in the Merkur and lakester.   My dyno numbers are
@600 turbo at the wheels with the very old SVO cyl head.  Later 2.99L engines N/A that were over 350, but not dyno tested
 
Depending on your goals Blown/naturally aspirated it can do well.  They are truly purpose built, light weight, and proven reliable in all venues of midget racing.  I have been running Dan Esslingers stuff for more than 25 years and have had great success with his parts and engines.  I have heard of dyno numbers of 450 HP naturally aspirated, (in calif) from 161 cubic inches.  Alum block and girdle and very high port cyl head that flows like  gangbusters.  Lots of trick stuff and very affordable.

If your choice is N/A application In my mind the only way to get very high compression we need, (specifically for Bville), the higher compression methanol burning midget engine will prove out to be best.
I've run very high compression with ERC Gasoline and methanol.  it might be a little harder to run the 17:1 head on gasoline at Ohio, but somebody probably has....
If your going to run on the salt, cooling needs to be addressed, but Esslinger seems to have that covered with his water pump that does a nice job, when run at the right speed.  It was designed with the Taurus 2.5L water pump in mind....
all in all a nice well developed race engine for less than $30K
Toyota, Chebby and all the rest are considerably more.
Used midget engines are available nation wide.
Good luck
I''ll be back on the salt with my liner, powered of course by an Esslinger Midget motor.  But I have to go to Wilmington first.

[desotoman]

Frankie,

I don't know about you but I like to maximize my investment. With that said, I would not go with any exotic 4 cyl. motor. I would not even go for a midget motor. I would go with a small block chevy V8. That motor gives you options for a lot less $$$$$$, plus you don't have to change motor mounts, etc.  when you want to step up to run in another engine class.

With a stock 350 you would have a C class motor, half of that would be an F class motor, special crank E class motor, Forged factory crank D class motor, and if you really wanted you could build a B class motor with a stroker crankshaft. So that gives you a choice of a B, C, D, E, and F engine class with one block.

You say you are interested in building a N/A  REMR. I don't know if this is current but here are the records - open minimums off of SCTA site,  for a N/A REMR at El Mirage which is close for you to run at.

B      Minimum              210.000

C      Minimum                200.000

D      Minimum               190.000

E      Minimum              185.000

F      Minimum              175.000

Bonneville records,

B          North of 49 Racing    T. Allen    08/12    248.853
C          Hot Rod Hoodlums    M. Jones    08/12    256.590
D          BMC Special    R. Blakely    08/10    243.618
E          Hot Rod Hoodlums    T. Teske    08/11    228.773
F              OPEN                                                        000.000

In my opinion the Bonneville records are pretty fast, so I would concentrate on the El Mirage open minimums. This would also give you time to get the bugs out of your car, and give you an idea of what it will take to go to Bonneville and try and set a record there. Also many people have SB Chevy's and someone might approach you and ask if they could put their motor in your car.

I like options, but that is just me. Whatever engine you pick I am sure you will be successful.

Tom G.

[Rick Byrnes]

Tom,
Dont you need to do a flat crank to make half a v8?  If so, then cam needs to be changed, and intake fabricated.  If we were to do all the labor ourselves the motor would be about 1/2 the cost of an Esslinger long track engine.  Interesting on how to optomize. but there is some development time involved.  A very interesting proposition. 
I like your option Tom.  And yes the liner will package a small v8.  Original Mel Swain design was for an Aurora Indy engine I think....

for me for now though, viva la Pinto  :-d

[RichFox]

I think you use 2 on one side and two on the other to get an even fire V4 out of a V8 with the OEM crank. Or at least that was what Solomon and Hardsock did. Or if you don't want to take me up on the 3 liter Stude. I do have 2 1928 Chevy 4 cylinder engines here. One with the very racey 1925 Olds head. A midget motor from the good days

[maguromic]

To throw another log on the fire, SCAT built a 4 cylinder based on the SBC architecture ,  basically it was the front and rear cylinders of the SBC.  Though it was hard on trans gears and had a bad vibration it did well in midget races.  It was also adapted by Arlen Ness for some of his choppers.  The last time I talked with Arlen he still had some of the blocks and heads kicking around.  Tony

[Tman]

To throw another log on the fire, SCAT built a 4 cylinder based on the SBC architecture ,  basically it was the front and rear cylinders of the SBC.  Though it was hard on trans gears and had a bad vibration it did well in midget races.  It was also adapted by Arlen Ness for some of his choppers.  The last time I talked with Arlen he still had some of the blocks and heads kicking around.  Tony

I wanted to build one of those since I saw one in ness' Sturgis booth back in the 90s.

[Stan Back]

Tom --

I think you picked up an old Rule Book.  The B, C and D records are set, although a lot less the the standard GMRs.  I'd think the RMRs would have an advantage -- time will tell.

Stan

[Jonny Hotnuts]

I have done a bit of research for alternatives to the JZ or RB26 engine platforms. WHile both excellent and proven motors they are getting very difficult to find, and are really expensive.

A BMW M3 motor (E46) [3.2l, would need to be destroked to 3] is making about 340whp is stock form and is making +1200 hp with boost. These too are expensive motors but are easier to find IMO but were DESIGNED to make HP in stock form.

Plus....the inline 6s have a smaller FA!!!!

GOod luck!

~JH

[Sumner]

The 1/2 a V-8 has interested me in the past and might still, but there are drawbacks and vibration is for sure one.  Here is ...



...a picture of what Russ Eyers did and he...



...was pretty convincing in why he only used one bank compared to 2 on one side and 2 on the other.  Most all of the conversions such as SCAT and others just used one bank.  I posted a page on my site years ago devoted to this approach and it is still there....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/page%205.html

.... and it summarizes some of these approaches.  Different manufactures have and still do run a V-8 on 4 cylinders or more under different load conditions.

If I was going to go 1/2 a V-8 it for sure would be with an LS based motor and not the old SBC.  To get to the 400 HP level that Rex mentioned you need a small block that is making over 800 HP NA and that is NASCAR territory, again not cheap.  You can get LS heads that flow way better than all but the most expensive SBC heads.

There again the GM I-4 that I mentioned and other engines that were mentioned flow well over 300 cfm almost stock.  The I-4 I mentioned isn't as well know as some of the others but you can get rods, pistons, cams, girdles and valve train to make it a very viable motor. 

Frankie another approach and one I'm kind of taking is based on what was mentioned above.  Build the car put together a reasonably priced motor of know HP unless you have the money for one of the $25,000 to $50,000 options.  Run the car and see what it will do MPH wise.  Knowing the HP and the speed you can calculate a speed that might be a legitimate record holder...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html

....now maybe someone who has a motor with the required HP or has the money to buy/build one will partner up with you.  As was mentioned some people just don't have the time to build a car but want to be involved.

Good luck,

Sum

[joea]

...uh...Frankie....there might be a "great" deal on a 3L right here on the board...

recently dynoed....LOTS of parts...lots of potental....

Buick 3 L......

not joking...

Jon A. and Stainless....have it....