A class issues

[sabat]

I have yet to hear an argument for excluding a Modified bike from an Altered class. Can anyone explain? -Dean

Well Dean it all depends where your bias lies......your conception of what is fair and reasonable is almost certainly very different to mine.

Ill leave the finer details to those who race at bubs....to ponder.
 

OK, for argument's sake, what is your opinion? Why should Modified bikes be disallowed from competing in Altered classes?

[hawkwind]

I have yet to hear an argument for excluding a Modified bike from an Altered class. Can anyone explain? -Dean

Well Dean it all depends where your bias lies......your conception of what is fair and reasonable is almost certainly very different to mine.

Ill leave the finer details to those who race at bubs....to ponder.
 

OK, for argument's sake, what is your opinion? Why should Modified bikes be disallowed from competing in Altered classes?

Dean
Ok for arguments sake why bother to have classes?......  let any class run in any class  anarchy rules  this is where it would lead...but the question is why would you want to run out of class? and more importantly what is your motivation to do so?....its the "motivation" that I perceive most seek to do this that  irks me, not so much the technicality of the class.
I wont go into a tirade of why I think this way as its not my intention to inflame passions or cast dispersions  on your good self
 

[sabat]

Please, feel free to express yourself HW. That's why I asked, this is a discussion forum, this thread is about the distinctions between Modified & Altered rules, so have at it. I'd rather you not "cast dispersions" on my personal character, but if you feel you need to, go for it.

The way I see it, if a Modified bike runs faster than the Altered record ( same displacement, turbo or not) then no one has yet taken full advantage of the Altered rules. So why not let the fastest available bike hold the record until that happens?

Gas and fuel records work this way - no one forces you to run non-event fuel or nitrous, just peel off the tank seal, and bingo, you're in the fuel class. Same thing with a naked bike in a faired class, I don't think you're required to streamline.

Dsiplacement records I sort of understand. Some engine configurations run better than others, because we depend on the OEMs as a base. But if Suzuki starting selling a 2900cc Hayabusa, then I'd think that running up in class should be allowed.

So what's the problem with an OEM-frame bike running faster than a custom frame bike, and taking the Altered record? Wouldn't this just motivate the Altered bike competitor to build a better bike, taking better advantage of the rules? I'm new at LSR, and I feel like I must be missing something, can one of the LSR veterans or historians try to explain it to me?

OK, enough ranting for me today, thanks for getting through all that

Dean

[nrhs sales]

I agree with you Sabat. It seems like a select few individuals who race at Bubs with custom made frames got upset that factory frames in many classes were going faster than what they made.

If the only difference between M and A was a custom frame that would be one thing, but in M we are only allowed to go 10% longer than stock wheelbase. So how does the guy with the 600 hp turbo Hyabusa keep his bike stable if he has to run such a short wheelbase in M class as he is not allowed to run in A with a longer swingaram due to having a near stock frame??

It seems like this new rule interpretation is intentionally trying to keep some of the very fast bike from being able to compete in AMA classes to me.  That just does not makes sense in my book as i would think the AMA would want more competitors not less at the event???


Understand right now I am not running in A but I would like to have that option. This new rule precludes me from doing so with my current stable of bikes.  If I set all the records I hope in M class and am then not allowed to compete in A due to having a too stock frame what then? Keep in mind I am also a sponsor of the Bubs event.  Not huge dollars but I am sure every little bit helps to keep the event going.

[sabat]

Excellent points nhrs.

[nrhs sales]

Maybe a new class for custom made frames should be developed? call it unlimited or something like that?  That way at least folks who still have a factory frame but require a longer than 10% wheelbase, pegs farther back etc can still run for record instead of being shut out of the event.

As I said my concern is not for me, it is for how this will affect the event. If you make a rule that disqualifies a certain percentage of bikes from running for a record at your event but they are still able to run at the other events what do you think the folks who own those bikes will do?   Is that what the AMA wants?  For only bikes built to a very small window within the rules to be able to run at their events?  Maybe they do and I am way off base?

I personally saw the impact this had this year at the event.  There was a team pitted next to us with a Harley V-rod.  They have ran this exact same bike for several years at the event with no issues.  On Monday I believe it was they were told their bike was disqualified from running in A class. They were so upset that they packed up everything and left vowing never to return to Bubs.  It was not nice to be around those guys as they were packing up to say the least

Please do not take this as me trying to bash the event, I am not!!  I love this event, so much so that I am a sponsor and I try to be one of its' most ardent defenders. But when I see an issue with the way things are being done that can have a significant impact on the future of Bubs i also believe it needs to be addressed.

I have not seen anything from AMA or any of its' officials regarding this. It would be nice if they would address it so at least folks know where this issue stands for next year.

I will say no more.

[maj]

In some respects the class could be broken in 2, Altered and Special construction, the words have been freely interchanged in this instance but can have quite different interpretations   , but seriously who wants to add more classes ,
FIM is much more simple in its classing structure ,

[bak189]

As you all well know by now "you can always tell a Dutchman...but not much" being Dutch born...here is my input..
Altered class should be for custom/one-off chassis/frames.....Modified class for stock (factory) chassis/frames that have been modified.....simple.......................................
SCTA/BNI went though this in the early 1990's with the sidecar class........SO what did they do put them all together....Just called it SIDECAR CLASS..............did not retire previous records.......they have sidecars and streamliner sidecar.....and even then they don't follow their own rules, we have lost streamliner records to sidecar that were not streamliners.................At the present time the BUB also has only two classes for sidecars ,in addition to a Vintage class....I would like to see classes for "bold-on" outfits.....custom/on-off chassis outfits......streamliner outfits.  With as many as 11 sidecars at some of the previous BUB events it certainly shows that there is interest in the class.......will there changes made....I fear not...............................................................

[sabat]

As you all well know by now "you can always tell a Dutchman...but not much" being Dutch born...here is my input..
Altered class should be for custom/one-off chassis/frames.....Modified class for stock (factory) chassis/frames that have been modified.....simple.......................................
SCTA/BNI went though this in the early 1990's with the sidecar class........SO what did they do put them all together....Just called it SIDECAR CLASS..............did not retire previous records.......they have sidecars and streamliner sidecar.....and even then they don't follow their own rules, we have lost streamliner records to sidecar that were not streamliners.................At the present time the BUB also has only two classes for sidecars ,in addition to a Vintage class....I would like to see classes for "bold-on" outfits.....custom/on-off chassis outfits......streamliner outfits.  With as many as 11 sidecars at some of the previous BUB events it certainly shows that there is interest in the class.......will there changes made....I fear not...............................................................

But why shouldn't a Modifed bike be allowed to compete with an Altered bike?  -Dean

[BHR301]

I have nothing in this fight, but....from my days of drag racing, if I move up a class (modified to altered) and I'm faster then you are with your altered - I would suggest that you don't complain about me, but work harder!

I may be wrong (often am) but no matter what class I am running in I would want the best handling frame I could get, if it happens to be a stock factory frame..so be it.

Bill

[Stainless1]

My dog in this fight is the 10% WB rule for modifieds... Bub followed the SCTA lead on that one....
I was running a modified class bike until the SCTA put in the 10% rule... based on OEM WB of 55 inches, with a 4 inch extension the bike was out of spec?  What?   ... when I measured the OEM WB minimum it was nearly 57 inches... Talked to the local bike shop... Oh yea, they spec them short because it makes them seem more nimble.  Talked to the Tom... he said measured from factory claimed spec... so I changed it to A at the salt.... the next year I stretched it 9, moved the gas tank under the seat, big battery in front of the seat... added even more weight front and back... ran faster... it is definitely not a modified street bike, it was purpose built for LSR, but it still used the stock perimeter frame because Suzuki did that part right.  Maybe HW is right... maybe there are too many restrictions on M, and A should be purpose built frames... not purpose built bikes...
Hopefully someone from the AMA is reading all this, and the Bub event survives, the concept is good  

[nrhs sales]

I have nothing in this fight, but....from my days of drag racing, if I move up a class (modified to altered) and I'm faster then you are with your altered - I would suggest that you don't complain about me, but work harder!

I like that view!!

[Stan Back]

I'm not following this as close as some of you guys -- after all it's about those 2-wheeled things.  But in cars, they started having some altereds run faster than the modifieds.  So they said that in order to have a modified, you had to have A, B or C.  So the altered guys just added a temporary A, B or C.  Work for you?

[stay`tee]

I have nothing in this fight, but....from my days of drag racing, if I move up a class (modified to altered) and I'm faster then you are with your altered - I would suggest that you don't complain about me, but work harder!

I may be wrong (often am) but no matter what class I am running in I would want the best handling frame I could get, if it happens to be a stock factory frame..so be it.

Bill

What Bill said,,,

I have a dog in this fight and to date have been closely watching with interest,, my ZX12 runs in modified, within the 10% rule, apart from the swingarm extensions and being slammed, the bike "looks " almost stock,, my 10% is based on the futherest back oem wheelbase dimension, the BUB official told me that it is to be based on the futherest forward(no allowance for chain adjustment) oem dimension, go figer ,, when i said ok ill nominate up to A, he said no way, cant run M, cant run A, (were talking 10mm difference here),, luckilly i had entered FIM,,, the AMA has to take into consideration that thay attract a "large" contingent of international competitors to the BUB event, rule directives/changes have to be made/put out there at the very least 6months in advance,,

There is no way that i cast disperstion on Drew, Curtis or Ken,, thay do a brillent job,,,


 

[donpearsall]

stay`tee,

What the "BUB" official told you was 100% wrong. The rule says "Measurement will be taken at the most rearward axle setting."  I agree that the AMA tech stewards such as Drew and Curtis are great and they have an extremely hard job, but they should all be on the same page. And speaking of pages, the rule book needs to be re-written to solve this M vs. A conflict. The stewards should interpret the rules as they are written, but every year I attend BUB I see new rules being made up on the spot with no basis or prior notice to racers. 

Don