A class issues

[JimL]

That graph makes perfect sense.  Unstreamlined bikes are so poor aero, that it doesnt make much difference.  Its more about the horsepower, which you can mke in an M or an A frame.

As some folks know, I tried an experiment this year with my 650cc APS pushrod bike.  After a 163+ return run, we pulled the streamlining and put my son on the bike.  He tucks better than the old man, you see.

The bike went 135 with the same gearing.  We then geared correctly for the better part of the power band...and went the same speed.  I tried it unstreamlined in another class and wound up 5 mph slower than my son.  The only fly in the ointment was a leaking head gasket, but that was already obvious on that 163 run a few days earlier.

I think what we see for comparative speeds is logical.  The biggest advantage for some M bikes is the availability of already developed power mods which have become available thru drag racing.  Devlopment in that arena is ongoing, instead of once a year (so to speak).

For those of us on tighter budgets, and a proclivity for doing things our own way, A bikes are too much fun!

JimL

[maj]

Anyone like to guess how many of these are with custom built frames and how many with factory built frames
roughly 163 records and i would guess less than 1/3 are custom frame  and all built to the rules and accepted in class


APS-W 196.42 Yates, W Swigz ProRacing 2011
APS-W 187.142 Yates, W Swigz ProRacing 2011
APS-W 68.848 Ingber, K Electrobike 2007
APS-DB 130.55 Sturtz, M BMW 2007
A-D 83.506 Nichols, C Suzuki 2012
APS-D 86.751 Nichols, C Suzuki 2012
A-D 90.251 Hayes, F HDTUSA 2009
A-DB 114.152 Hayes, F Hayes 2012
APS-DB 121.212 Hayes, F Hayes 2012
A-PP** 139.62 Cook, B Kawasaki 2005
A-PF 172.21 Hoegh, J Confederate 2012
A-PG 176.936 Bozzie, D Bozzie Custom 2010
A-PBG 155.877 Eller, W Wink/S&S 2012
A-AG 188.692 Elrod, T. Kawasaki 1976
A-AF 188.006 Elrod, T. Kawasaki 1977
APS-PG 201.707 Rivas, C Harley-Davidson 2012
APS-PBG 167.069 Traber, Sven Sven Cycles 2008
APS-AG 208.45 Campos, D. Harley-Davidson 1974
APS-AF 231.597 Campos, D. Harley-Davidson 1974
A-PG 173.042 Everhart, B Harley-Davidson 2007
A-PF 166.459 Reddick, J Confederate 2008
A-PBF 213.644 Minonno, J S & S 2008
A-AG 159.414 Riley, W. Harley-Davidson 1975
A-AF 201.432 Angerer, J. Triumph 1973
APS-PG 162.84 Gullett, D Yamaha 2009
APS-PF 171.504 Gullett, D Yamaha 2009
APS-PBF 218.838 Minonno, J Harley-Davidson 2008
APS-AG 169.828 Angerer, J. Triumph 1973
APS-AF 206.544 Riley, W. Harley-Davidson 1972
A-PG 169.759 Bennett, R Harley-Davidson 2009
A-PF 191.631 Wilson, A Harley-Davidson 2010
A-VBG 136.848 Pilgrim, D Harley-Davidson 2009
A-VBF 131.014 Pilgrim, D Harley-Davidson 2009
A-AG 169.521 Fish, D Harley-Davidson 2009
A-AF 193.202 Knecum, S Suzuki 2006
A-BG 189.555 Richmond, M Suzuki 2011
A-BF 192.54 Horner, S Suzuki 2010
APS-PG 186.777 Bennett, E Harley-Davidson 2005
APS-PBG 189.655 Perewitz, J Perewitz 2012
APS-AG 215.136 Cauby, C Suzuki 2012
APS-AF 219.347 Williams, J Suzuki 2012
APS-BG 204.427 Pearsall, D Suzuki 2011
APS-BF 187.461 Richmond, M Suzuki 2010
A-PG 169.477 Wilson, A Harley-Davidson 2008
A-PF 185.491 Wilson, A Harley-Davidson 2009
A-VG 124.988 Patterson, E Brough Superior 2011
A-VF 117.972 Morgan, S Indian 2006
A-AG 173.748 Stites, S Suzuki 2009
A-AF 177.422 Stites, S Suzuki 2009
A- BG 204.005 Dobbs. J Suzuki 2009
A- BF 196.73 Dobbs, J Suzuki 2010
APS-P** 201.772 Mills, D Suzuki 2008
APS-PG 176.29 Taylor, J Buell 2009
APS-PF 172.731 Huff, S Buell 2012
APS-PBG 83.611 Sanders, S Harley-Davidson 2012
APS-VG 132.19 Leeman, R Harley-Davidson 2011
APS-AG 211.711 Garcia, M Suzuki 2009
APS-AF 211.671 Garcia, M Suzuki 2009
APS-BG 107.214 Pedroli, D Kawasaki 2011
A-PG 148.947 Omer, J Buell 2010
A-PF 147.779 Omer, J Buell 2010
A-PBG 137.653 Zetterquist, K Harley-Davidson 2012
A-VG 112.237 Kott, F Harley-Davidson 2004
A-VF 122.258 Kott, F Harley-Davidson 2006
A-VBF 120.707 Kott, F Harley-Davidson 2004
A-CBG 141.292 Zetterquist, K Harley-Davidson 2012
A-AG 165.328 Bjorklund, M Ducati 2012
A-AF 165.48 Strickland, R. BSA 1971
A-BG 202.207 Scholz, E Suzuki 2012
A- BF 183.037 Keep, R Suzuki 2010
APS-PG 156.853 Omer, J Buell 2012
APS-PF 158.478 Omer, J Buell 2011
APS-PBG 151.439 Dutrel, L Harley-Davidson 2009
APS-PBF 150.732 Goldammer, R Harley-Davidson 2008
APS-VG 116.935 Hector, F Harley-Davidson 2010
APS-VF 120.137 Kott, F Harley-Davidson 2008
APS-VBG 116.601 Hector, F Harley-Davidson 2011
APS-CBG 151.641 Zetterquist, K Harely-Davidson 2012
APS-AG 168.139 Bartlett, J. Triumph 1975
APS-AF 175.437 Wilson, J. Triumph 1975
APS-BG 169.062 Retsch, G Ducati 2012
APS-BF 176.802 Bartholomew, D Kawasaki 2011
A-AG 148.471 Rispoli, J Kawasaki 2010
A-AF 160.173 Durkee, T. Triumph 1974
A-PG 130.903 Blackwell, J Harley-Davidson 2012
A-PBG 127.795 Daly, J Buell 2011
A-BF 189.097 Higgins, J Suzuki 2010
APS-PBG 133.952 Daly, C Buell 2011
APS-VG 108.931 Hector, T Harley-Davidson 2006
APS-VF 113.289 Hector, T Harley-Davidson 2006
APS-AG 153.772 Rispoli, J Kawasaki 2010
APS-AF 169.331 Gough, J. Triumph 1969
APS-BG 209.81 Krebs, K Suzuki 2009
APS-BF 215.586 Watters, G Suzuki 2010
A-PG 109.479 Parsley, C Buell 2012
A-VBF 97.987 Nielsen, L Indian 2011
A-AG 149.117 Rispoli, J Kawasaki 2009
A-AF 159.542 Richards, G. Triumph 1961
A-BG 102.042 Woods, W Yamaha 2007
APS-PG 114.986 Petrie, S Moto Guzzi 2010
APS-PF 93.574 Parsley, C Buell 2012
APS-AG 152.474 Goveia, E. Kawasaki 1977
APS-AF 161.793 Richards, G. Triumph 1965
APS-BG 162.47 Cole, T Triumph 2008
APS-BF 143.037 Cole, T Triumph 2009
A-PG 117.701 Borcherdt, T BSA 2011
A-PF 111.378 Scroggins, R Westlake 2008
A-VG 108.931 Baublitz, J BMW 2009
A-AG 137.532 Isley, R. Kawasaki 1971
A-AF 142.602 Gansberger, T Honda 1978
APS-PG 134.018 Borcherdt, T BSA 2012
APS-VG 106.83 Kerkoff, L BMW 2009
APS-AG 157.236 Eriksen, B.H. Yamaha 1978
APS-AF 157.154 Woods, W Honda 2011
APS-PBF 128.181 Richmond, M Honda 2009
A-VG 60.277 Brophy, R Wizzer 2005
A-AG 141.928 Eckhardt, D. Yamaha 1974
A-AF 139.593 Eriksen, B. Yamaha 1975
A-BG 107.533 Omer, J Honda 2009
A-BF 96.32 Omer, J Honda 2007
APS-PG 96.225 Riggs, D Harley-Davidson 2009
APS-AG 159.893 Eriksen, Brian Yamaha 1977
APS-AF 151.901 Eriksen, B. Yamaha 1975
A-AG 133.022 Fair, HB Yamaha 1978
A-AF 141.698 Wagner, B Honda 2008
APS-PG 93.825 Riggs, D Harley-Davidson 2009
APS-PF 79.144 Bennett. M Triumph 2010
APS-AG 152.175 Wagner, B Honda 2006
APS-AF 139.436 Wagner, B Honda 2008
A-AG 106.944 Brigham IV, H. Can-Am 1976
A-AF 106.315 Brigham IV, H. Can-Am 1976
APS-AG 120.098 Wagner, B Honda 2005
APS-AF 126.515 Wagner, B Honda 2004
APS-BF 58.6665 Manning, C Honda 2012
A-AG 125.75 Kolb, S Honda 2008
A-AF 124.828 Kolb, S Honda 2008
APS-AG 133.168 Grufstedt, PC Morbidelli 1978
APS-AF 146.72 Kolb, S Kolb 2010
A-AG 92.422 Conway, T. Kawasaki 1975
A-AF 91.666 Eckhardt, D. Suzuki 1973
APS-AG 101.907 Schneider, M Honda 2010
APS-AF 104.395 Bowns, Bryan Honda 1977
S-AG 142.864 Hunter, E Swedetech/Costella 2008
S-AF 155.11 Buddenbaum, J Buddenbaum 2009
A-AG 72.558 Packard, D. Suzuki 1969
A-AF 80.949 Packard, D. Suzuki 1973
APS-AG 102.703 Schneider, M Honda 2011
APS-AF 82.264 Packard, D. Suzuki 1970
S-AG 121.439 Noyes, E Buddenbaum 2006
S-AF 144.921 Buddenbaum, J Buddenbaum 2008
SCS-AF 80.427 McLeish, D Van Butler 2005

 


 

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Let me guess - that these are AMA records, right?  I don't know, really.

[maj]

Yep straight from the 2013 AMA regulations and records download

[nrhs sales]

Unfortunately what I think this new rule interpretation is going to hurt attendance at Bubs.  Folks who have a stock frame but with "A" type mods that run in SCTA are not going to want to completely re-design their bike just so they can run in "M" at bubs.  I really hope that the AMA rules committee can figure this out sooner rather than later and publishes a clear summary of what it takes to run in A this year.

[Uncle Jimbo]

     I seem to notice several older records from early 70's in that list that were done at SCTA Bnvle. events, not at BUB - AMA/BUB is only ten years old.
     I have seen plenty of what used to be a stock frame, cut up, sliced & diced and are completely legal for the A class since there is no way they could fit the Modified rule agenda.  Most all of this hand wringing, consternation, & second guessing every other persons interpretation of a rule, could easily be remedied by simply addressing whatever question you have to either Ken Saillant at AMA or his Chief Technical Steward Mr. Drew Gatewood.  Known as AHG here - PM a mail to him.  Get the skinny from the horses mouth, and forget what some other persons interpretation is, unless they are a certified Technical Steward.  Your just askin for headaches, and additional confusion.
     I had some classification questions before going to LTA - We simply asked the questions months before hand to Joe D. at LTA and bingo - no confusion - got it straight from someone in charge of the event. No last minute problems, we were all on the same page.
Bottom line - If you want a correct answer to a classification question at BUB - call or e mail Mr. Drew.   

     Just my humble opinion, since our team has been confronted with the same dilemma between different venues for a couple years. Some we have to run M - some we have to run A. It gets back to the old story of - If you go play ball in somebody elses neighborhood, you gotta play by their rules.

And Dan - If somebody cops an attitude and doesn't want to go to BUB - That's their poor choice, and their loss. 

Jimbo

[Stainless1]

Jimbo... only problem is that the rule was interpreted at the event... not well before... and no one knows what the interpretation will be at the next one....
maybe the AMA will have a special construction rule written prior to the next event so folks can be prepared before the event.
I believe that is going to happen based on the folks that are involved with the event. 

[Uncle Jimbo]

Jimbo... only problem is that the rule was interpreted at the event... not well before... and no one knows what the interpretation will be at the next one....
maybe the AMA will have a special construction rule written prior to the next event so folks can be prepared before the event.
I believe that is going to happen based on the folks that are involved with the event. 

I also think they may/will be a little more specific Stainless.  I also still think, when there is a gray area that is not totally understood, best answer would come from an event official like Ken or AHG - its only a phone call away - and you avoid a situation the day of Tech.   
Single digit temps here last night with 3+ in. snow - gotta shovel the way to the garage.

Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas - and Happy Hollidays
Jimbo

[nrhs sales]

unfortunately the written rule had not changed at all but yet they changed the interpretation of the rule at the event with no notice given.  Folks had no idea this was coming so how could they know to contact an official beforehand?  A very poor way to do things IMO.

[maj]

That was our main issue
been racing something or other since i was 16 , and always figured i can work to whatever rules are in place or if i realy don't like it go find something else to do ,its not all that complicated
but when the goal posts are moved at the actual meeting  & when builds have been going for several yrs on based on the rules and there interpretation
and many records set by bikes that now would seem to be put in a time only category , i do feel the need to question

I am not questioning Ken, Drew, Curtis or any of the guys helping out , they do a great job and this yr would have been very difficult for them 

my understanding is the directive came from higher up in the AMA

If we can get a clear and timely directive for the 2014  season  i would be happy to put this yr behind us and move on

 

[wobblywalrus]

Somehow word got to me before the 2013 meet and that was a big factor in my spending the extra money and going to the trouble to run FIM rather than AMA with my production framed bike.  These are other reasons why I like the FIM, but knowing about the pending rule interpretation was the clincher.  I recall mentioning this on my build diary.  I sure do not remember any details about how I learned about it, unfortunately.

 

[hawkwind]

I may be one of the few who agree that "A" special construction should be just that and any production or production modified frames be banned from that class  . this includes production body work as well or modified production body work and I applaud the AMA for taking this stand.... though not there new interpretations on the day which is unforgivable 

I have given it some thought and believe the problem is in the wayyyy to limited scope for the modified class...this is where the effort to change the rules should be ......modified should be based on a production frame ,where any modifications  be allowed provided they are to a production frame and that in partial streamlined class any modifications to the production body work....but it must be based on the production body work ....you could set an 80" limit on wheelbase ( or no limit )  which could be made up from any combination of rake and /or lengthened swing arm ....this would see most if not all of those bikes that now don't fit into  special construction or modified able to run modified class

Leave the special construction class to the purpose built ( as in for landspeed racing only) radical / experimental/ outside the box bikes.....with there up to 4 engines and unlimited nature.

cheers Gary   

[sabat]

I have yet to hear an argument for excluding a Modified bike from an Altered class. Can anyone explain? -Dean

[wobblywalrus]

The AMA modified and altered tails are not much different and neither are especially aerodynamic.  The skirting behind the rear axle on both cannot go below the top of the rear wheel rim.  In addition, it is very difficult to get the attached air flow behind the rider that takes advantage of the tail length.  Most bikes would run about the same speeds either way.     

[hawkwind]

I have yet to hear an argument for excluding a Modified bike from an Altered class. Can anyone explain? -Dean

Well Dean it all depends where your bias lies......your conception of what is fair and reasonable is almost certainly very different to mine.

Ill leave the finer details to those who race at bubs....to ponder.